Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

This is the place to post whatever questions you have related to the teachings of Eckhart Tolle. The rest of us will do whatever we can to help you achieve a better understanding :)
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dannydawiz
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Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by dannydawiz » Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:53 am

Hello everyone.
After having a conversation with my uncle yesterday on Easter I began to notice that there is quite a bit of conflict within me.

He asked me the question, Do I think rape is right or wrong?
I answered the question by saying that rape is neither wrong nor right. Rape is simply rape. If someone were being raped however I would stop them.

He then asked me why?
I told him because I don't want people to get raped.
He then asked me why?

I couldn't answer his question...

This brought me to the awareness.

I don't have any morals.
That is a scary place for me to be in.

At the same time though saying "I" don't have any morals is an identification with a thought. That can't be real. I cannot be anything other than what I am. At the same time though I cannot deny that regardless of whether I have an identity this body contains a heart, lungs, bones, and blood.

At one level part of me is saying that I cannot describe what is. The red fluid in this body cannot be "blood" because blood is a label. That is just what they decided to call it. At the same time though whether its called "blood" or "doolb" the labels DO point to something. The words point to something that is absolute.

I feel like everything I've learned is falling apart. My uncle is a HARDCORE Christian but everything he says is backed up by logic where as I feel that my perspectives aren't. I don't want to attempt to defend Eckhart's teachings because even Eckhart said that there is nothing to believe.

What is even more bothering is the fact that morals can ONLY exist when there is right and wrong.

Right and wrong are RELATIVE.

For example even though the bible says lying is wrong is it a sin to lie to the nazis in order to hide the jews?
I'm not concerned with relative truth... What I want to understand is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH.
I had originally thought that when you can be present without any mental interpretation that THIS was absolute truth.

I'm so confused... I have no right or wrong to define my actions and I feel that everything I've learned in the past half a year is suddenly falling apart...

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Webwanderer
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by Webwanderer » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:39 am

I have had this same conversation with quite a few Bible quoting Christians. Don't expect to change their minds. The matter of course, is your own peace of mind in understanding this 'moral' dilemma. When asked this question about rape in my own dialogs with the 'gotcha' gang Christians, I would confirm that from my perspective rape is not wrong... followed by - "It's bad enough without making it wrong".

Here's the thing about judging things, people, events, conditions, whatever, as wrong. It's unlikely to effect positive change in the object of one's judgment. It's nearly certain however, to create negative conditions in the one judging. So, the Biblical admonition to "judge not lest ye be judged" becomes clearer when perceived in this context. Our negative judgment of perceived acts of wrong tend to do us harm by excluding aspects of the human experience. We become, in a sense, smaller - and there's a whole lot of stuff in life we can see as 'wrong'. It's no wonder so many are tense, uptight and stressed out.

Spiritual growth however, is gained through inclusion, not exclusion. The more we are open to life and it's various events and conditions, the more 'generous' we are in our willingness to let things be as they are, the more at ease and peaceful we are in our overall life experience.

Consider now, when you decided that you would try to help the hypothetical rape victim, why did you do it? Analytically there was no moral reason to do so without a perception of right and wrong. Yet you knew that action to help a person in need was the best course in this circumstance. How can this be if a wrong wasn't being committed?

My sense is that it has nothing to do with right and wrong. It has to do with helping someone in need. It's not about beating up or punishing the rapist, it's about helping the victim. It's not all that different from offering to help in carrying in the groceries, or stopping to help a senior change a flat tire. While it's true that confronting the perpetrator of a rape caries some risk, one might compare it to risking one's life helping save a trapped mountain climber, or a drowning swimmer. Helping someone can always be dangerous.

The thing is, it's not about casting judgment or condemnation on another. It's about an internal motivation to do what feels right in any given circumstance. And what feels right is not a judgment in opposition to one of wrong in this context. It's merely following the insightful flow on energy from one's inner being - one's True Nature. So, your inclination to help has nothing to do with morals, invented by man, and reinforced through judgment. It is simply inspired guidance in following your path of joy. Relax, you're doing well.

WW

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dannydawiz
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by dannydawiz » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:00 am

Thank you so much webwanderer.
Would you mind if I asked your name?

What you said has given me a calm and I thank you for that because I can finally go to sleep.
I'll give a more detailed response tomorrow. It's 12AM and I have to wake up early.

I really do appreciate your generosity.

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Re: Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by peas » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:21 am

What's the point of the conversation in the first place? That makes all the difference, because the mind sets its agenda very firmly with no room to move from it's structure. This structure includes 'the individual', 'cause and effect' and 'if it doesn't have words then it doesn't exist'.

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Re: Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by dijmart » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:02 pm

Webwanderer wrote:My sense is that it has nothing to do with right and wrong. It has to do with helping someone in need. It's not about beating up or punishing the rapist, it's about helping the victim. It's not all that different from offering to help in carrying in the groceries, or stopping to help a senior change a flat tire.
As usual, WW did a great job answering your question. Only thing I would add is that what WW is describing is compassion or empathy. Compassion/empathy for another human being, so while you don't have to judge the situation, you can feel or see when another human being is in need and help them.
Take what you like and leave the rest.

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Re: Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by Filander » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:49 am

Not looking for an argument but genuinely curious here... Why not just say, "Rape is wrong"?

And if you wanted to genuinely help the victim, wouldn't that include helping to bring the perpetrator to justice? In a court of law? Where the jury would indeed, pass judgment?

Really, I don't get it.

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Re: Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by Maire » Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:47 am

You do have morals, you just won't admit it. Your mind is having an argument ..... with itself. I just don't like this no ego, no judgement high horse everyone seems to be on. I just don't believe it actually. If your own sister was raped or your house was robbed or you were attacked yourself, you can be sure you would develop moral judgement in double quick time.

You are identified with "I" - we all are, even Eckhart. He is not meditating in a cave 24/7 with no material possessions or personal attachments. Lets get real here.

All words are labels so that is a pointless mental puzzle you have set yourself.

Your uncle is a "hardcore" Christian. Eckhart quotes Jesus all the time so your uncle can't be all wrong.

It is human intelligence that is causing all this trouble. That is how we have evolved. Get used to it. Animals don't worry about what is right or wrong. Our intelligence is what defines us as a species. That's what gives you your mind, your mind gives you your conscience (yes, you have a conscience, I'm not buying that no morals thing).

In everyday life, to be a socially functioning human you have to have "I". You think and call it "I". The ego.

You are just overthinking the whole thing.

Is it like how a vegetarian has to not eat anything containing animal products, readers of Eckhart Tolle can't have any moral judgement? For practical purposes, we just have to have rules and laws. This is plain common sense.

Your ego is not satisfied with relative truth, it wants the best - absolute truth. Sorry ego, the human mind can't begin to understand absolute truth of Being.

If you had no sense of right and wrong, you would not be looking for something to define your actions. If you find yourself less judgemental than others, less emotionally charged by "bad" things - so be it. Accepting what is doesn't mean you can't do anything about it.

Your mind is using these issues as food for confusion. In everyday life "wrong" is still "wrong" and "right" is still "right". They are not really absolutes but we have to have some kind of guideline, some kind of reference point. Do you think there should be no laws of any kind?

Sometimes the law could be "wrong" as in your example of Nazi Germany. Who says it is wrong? How do you know? It is not always clear but we are trying to end suffering, not cause it. My goal would be to end suffering for myself and others. Yes, the universe is whole and perfect just as it is but here on earth we have to deal with real life ... or make some effort to interact with this crazy dream.
I have lived with several zen masters - all of them cats. - Eckhart Tolle

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Re: Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by Webwanderer » Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:14 am

Filander wrote:Not looking for an argument but genuinely curious here... Why not just say, "Rape is wrong"?
From a human perspective it would seem so. I suggest you reread my post above as it relates to what judgment does to cause us problems and why it's not the best way to perceive difficult events.

There is also however, more to what we are as conscious beings than what is expressed as human. In that greater perspective, all human experience is an exploration that has value in the evolution of consciousness. Again, that's how I see it and it feels closer to truth than anything I can yet perceive.

WW

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Fore
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by Fore » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:09 pm

dannydawiz wrote:
He then asked me why?
I told him because I don't want people to get raped.
He then asked me why?

I couldn't answer his question...
Would you like to be raped?

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Re: Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by SandyJoy » Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:33 pm

Personally, this subject is one very close to my heart because I feel this whole "non-dual" ideology has been misinterpreted and mis-used as a way of avoiding the Truth, not finding and living It.

As Maire says so well really. We do have a conscience. We know when we have done wrong. We know. We know when we have done right too.

We know. We are made of Divine Intelligence really and so, pure God Light which is LOVE and Love is the Inner Guide, the compass.

In the pure Light of Truth, we can ask if this man were 'sane, whole, living aright' he would not be raping others. Why not? Because to the True Heart we see all others and all things our Self, not objects' out there, but the Living Light of God being evidenced as this 'world of matter and things" which are really the shining images of the Unseen Illimitable Light of Godhead the One and Only Presence Here.

When we find our Pure Selfhood of Mind and Soul, we then, of course know what Love Is, and when we know what Love is, our every actions are Lived from This Place of Intelligence and now Seeing All as the the reflection and images of Godhead the Only Isness Here. A new Light dawns and a new way of living, from the Truth.

From the Heart, we then take the right actions here in the world when or if those kinds of "wrongs' that might present themselves, we will know what to do and do it --- we do if we follow our gut, our heart, our conscience, our wisdom and feelings beyond fear and intellect. That is the Child in us.

Now, I also have seen something else though and I need to add this here; When we find our True Identity and It takes our hand and leads us through this world, and it Lives in and as Who We Are, our world changes, our world becomes new--- in what seems like magic, we are 'taken' into a slight shift in this space time world -- and perception shift happens and we are in what I call the Meadow--- the Meadow is "heaven spread over the face of the earth that man cannot see"--- It is right here, but none can enter until or when the Child is re-discovered.

With the re-membering of our Original Selfhood, and the Living of It, we find our Self in the Meadow. Without a lot of mumbo jumbo I will simply say Here in the Meadow as the Child (they are simultaneous) 'bad things' do not happen. You won't see a 'rape or bad stuff'-- you just won't.

In the world of time, outside the Meadow, we have much to do, to help, to bring the Light to others, to do what we can for the world that does not See and Live in the Meadow, we do our best and shine our Light and Give what we can so that one day 'everyone' Lives Here in this Heart felt Place of Beauty and Joy and wonder and Peace and Goodness, oh yes, such Goodness.

And yes, the Intelligence of God knows right from wrong and that Knowing is in us always, we do not lose that Knowing just because we have forgotten Who We Are.

our 'sins' teach us how to return to the Light of Truth, our regressions show us how to come Home again, our wrongs burn in us until we repent and turn around and Come Home. Does that sound like old time religion-- it really is not-- That is just the purity of Love and Love knows right from wrong.


And I shall write my law in their inward parts and write it in their heart; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. They shall teach no more everyman his neighbor and every man his brother, saying “Know the Lord” for they shall all know me from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord, and I will remember their sin no more. (Jeremiah)

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. (Isaiah)

Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Jesus)

While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. (Jesus)

Ye are all the children of light and the children of day. (Paul)

Suffer little children to come unto me ... for such is the kingdom of God. (Jesus)

It is the Child that sees the primordial secret in Nature and it is the child of ourself we return to. The child within us is simple and daring enough to live the Secret. (Chungtse)

For where the beginning is, there shall be the end. (Jesus)

The children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Paul)

We are the children of the promise. (Paul)

I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth. (Jesus)

I can tell you that we can find the Child and when we do all integrity, honesty, beauty, virtue, living 'aright' comes naturally and easy and without fear or question.

The Child is the one buried beneath the adulthood of yourself, buried under this one who is confused and perplexed by what is 'right and what is wrong' the one who has been indoctrinated, educated by societies' erroneous ideas and false beliefs. Under it all there is your True Self, pure, pristine, innocent, Real, free and wonderful and so very much Yours, your true nature, your Love.

If you want a sense of balance and stability in your life, then I suggest you look for the Child within you. You can return to this Place, the Meadow right here in the midst of this 'rough edged world'. listen and search your Heart, the Child stirs to tell us It lives.

I am going to let these beautiful words of another who showed me where and how to find the Child, tell you also:

"We reach for the Child and the Child comes running into our gut to respond and say, “I am come!” We begin to see small wonders again, the way we saw them as children. We acknowledge these wonders as gifts from God and lo, they come more frequently. We gird up our loins and dare tell others of the gentle Child within them, and our wonders increase and grow apace. We thank God for the Child of Life by telling our subjective selfhood of the Child they are. Imperceptibly, bit by bit, we let the inner Child lead us to the right hand and to the left. Imperceptibly, our reliance on external authority gives way to the Light of Life within ourselves, and we quarrel no longer with any man. Then we see the Child in all men, even the arrogant and scornful, even the feeble and sick. As we look for the Child in ourselves, we see It in all men and see them coming alive as well. THIS is to give God what is God's." ( William Samuel "The Child Within Us Lives! A Synthesis of Science, Religion and Metaphysics" )
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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Re: Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by treasuretheday » Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:07 pm

dannydawiz wrote:What I want to understand is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH.
You can't get to truth through the reasoning process, as Maire noted. The human mind can't grasp it. We can't know truth as an object, we can only be truth.

Yes... beyond the surface view of the darkest picture, a higher good does dawn and bring light. The darkness is not the entire picture ... of course. But any vision of humanity that brushes off the reality of evil or does not respect its power is of no use. We cannot collude with evil by being complacent or indifferent.

Maire and Sandy so beautifully articulate ... we have a conscience, we have a soul, brutality is wrong.

God is the energy of nonviolence, so peace and love is the very ground of our being. So it makes no sense to say, "Well, this person will learn and grow a lot if I just use them as a means to an end. I will just exploit this woman, starve this baby, beat this child....down the road they will surely thank me for it. I will use them to meet my needs, and they will be toughened and strengthened by my abuse. So, I ask you, how could my acts be wrong?"

Now whether harmed persons need be "victimized" or defined by harm is another story. How one regards the perpetrator of the harmful act is yet another question. But rape is wrong. Starving a baby is wrong. Abusing a child is wrong. Inflicting pain is wrong. And peace is not merely the absence of war. We must actively create peace. Every loving thought is a key to the kingdom of heaven here on earth.

Can love redeem the harm? The injury and injustice done? With every fiber of my being, I say yes! To me that is the heart of the Christian message. Our brokenness can be redeemed. Brokenness of both "vicitim" and "perpetrator." Through us, here on earth, we are each called to be the instruments of God's love and peace. We are God's eyes, God's feet, God's arms. We must awaken to our sacred responsibility to one another... so we are not satisfied to leave the world in a terrible mess.
Life itself is the proper binge.
-Julia Child

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Re: Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by KathleenBrugger » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:48 pm

It is said that one of the guardians of the temple of truth is Paradox. Paradox is guaranteed to confuse those who are not ready for the truth. Paradox means “a statement or proposition that, despite sound reasoning from acceptable premises, leads to a conclusion that seems senseless, logically unacceptable, or self-contradictory.”

There are two levels here. One is the level WW is talking about. That is the view from Oneness, which sees that there are no mistakes; everything is perfect; there is no right and wrong. To call something or someone wrong is to declare there is a mistake somewhere in the perfect unfolding of the universe. This is true but confusing.

The other level is that which most of us live on from day to day. This is the level of space-time, and our actions have real consequences. We live in societies that have a right to establish order and rules of behavior. Many of our rules are based on ancient codes of ethics that I believe are a product of our evolution as a social creature—don’t kill or hurt others and don’t steal are among the most basic. These ethics are also the foundation of our conscience. We can say it is wrong to rape another person, and you will be punished for doing so, because that helps make the kind of world we want to live in.

Yes morality is human-invented, relative, and changing, but that isn’t a bad thing. That means we can mold it to what is important in our time. For example, two hundred years ago it was moral to own slaves. Is any one sorry that we changed our minds on that one?

Why does a person do something like rape? I think what is important to remember is that most people are captive to their conditioned minds. They know not what they do. They are capable of all sorts of horrific things because of their twisted thinking. In my terminology, they’re insane. Crazy people do crazy things, like rape or murder. Here’s where I think I differ from your uncle: I don’t think of the rapist as a bad or evil person, I think of him as sick. And I think this is where WW was going with the lack of judgment. Sandyjoy said: “if this man were 'sane, whole, living aright' he would not be raping others.” Exactly. The proper response is to feel compassion for his suffering, along with that of the victim.

When we wake up we don’t need society’s rules any longer to make us behave. We come from love and naturally behave in ethical ways; we are compassionate, forgiving, understanding, caring, generous, considerate, kind, encouraging, supportive, helpful, patient, selfless, and honest.
We are ALL Innocent by Reason of Insanity
http://kathleenbrugger.blogspot.com/

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dannydawiz
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by dannydawiz » Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:43 pm

treasuretheday wrote:You can't get to truth through the reasoning process, as Maire noted. The human mind can't grasp it. We can't know truth as an object, we can only be truth.
If someone stabbed me in the heart I would die. That is an ABSOLUTE TRUTH.
Just like a function where one x has one y outcome.
treasuretheday wrote: "Well, this person will learn and grow a lot if I just use them as a means to an end. I will just exploit this woman, starve this baby, beat this child....down the road they will surely thank me for it. I will use them to meet my needs, and they will be toughened and strengthened by my abuse. So, I ask you, how could my acts be wrong?"
THIS is what I do not understand! How can an action be right or wrong? Starving a baby in an objective reality cannot be anything other than what it is, the starving of a baby. Beating a child cannot be anything other than beating a child. Exploiting a woman cannot be anything other than exploiting a woman.

Yet, I would not do anything of these things. Can I explain why? No I can't!

Webwanderer you did say it could be that somewhere In my last example it had to do with helping someone in need. How would you explain these examples however? ^^^
Fore wrote: Would you like to be raped?
No I wouldn't. Why? The experience to me seems like it would be unpleasant. What is your point?
SandyJoy wrote: Now, I also have seen something else though and I need to add this here; When we find our True Identity and It takes our hand and leads us through this world, and it Lives in and as Who We Are, our world changes, our world becomes new--- in what seems like magic, we are 'taken' into a slight shift in this space time world -- and perception shift happens and we are in what I call the Meadow--- the Meadow is "heaven spread over the face of the earth that man cannot see"--- It is right here, but none can enter until or when the Child is re-discovered.
Yes but was is the identity? Is the identity a mental construct or does it have an objective existence?

I cannot deny that the identity IS a mental construct. My identity is my opinion of myself which is based off of past experiences. I can do this and I can do that. I can't do this and I can't do that. The destruction of this mental identity is what I consider to "rebirth"
or "born again"

I am afraid to create for myself an identity.


Why? The identity has the ability to keep yourself imprisoned. If you've been telling yourself that you're ugly or you're not capable of doing this then you're going to live your whole life thinking that it's an objective part of reality.

At the same time though some parts of the identity ARE objective which is what is confusing me...

If I am born blind then no matter how much I try to tell myself that I am not blind it isn't going to change the fact that I AM indeed blind. I had originally thought that the identity was false and made up of nothing but false subjective labels. However, labels can at times point to things that DO have an objective existence in reality such as the person being blind.
Maire wrote:You do have morals, you just won't admit it. Your mind is having an argument ..... with itself. I just don't like this no ego, no judgement high horse everyone seems to be on. I just don't believe it actually. If your own sister was raped or your house was robbed or you were attacked yourself, you can be sure you would develop moral judgement in double quick time.

You are identified with "I" - we all are, even Eckhart. He is not meditating in a cave 24/7 with no material possessions or personal attachments. Lets get real here.

All words are labels so that is a pointless mental puzzle you have set yourself.

Your uncle is a "hardcore" Christian. Eckhart quotes Jesus all the time so your uncle can't be all wrong.

It is human intelligence that is causing all this trouble. That is how we have evolved. Get used to it. Animals don't worry about what is right or wrong. Our intelligence is what defines us as a species. That's what gives you your mind, your mind gives you your conscience (yes, you have a conscience, I'm not buying that no morals thing).

In everyday life, to be a socially functioning human you have to have "I". You think and call it "I". The ego.

You are just overthinking the whole thing.

Is it like how a vegetarian has to not eat anything containing animal products, readers of Eckhart Tolle can't have any moral judgement? For practical purposes, we just have to have rules and laws. This is plain common sense.

Your ego is not satisfied with relative truth, it wants the best - absolute truth. Sorry ego, the human mind can't begin to understand absolute truth of Being.

If you had no sense of right and wrong, you would not be looking for something to define your actions. If you find yourself less judgemental than others, less emotionally charged by "bad" things - so be it. Accepting what is doesn't mean you can't do anything about it.

Your mind is using these issues as food for confusion. In everyday life "wrong" is still "wrong" and "right" is still "right". They are not really absolutes but we have to have some kind of guideline, some kind of reference point. Do you think there should be no laws of any kind?

Sometimes the law could be "wrong" as in your example of Nazi Germany. Who says it is wrong? How do you know? It is not always clear but we are trying to end suffering, not cause it. My goal would be to end suffering for myself and others. Yes, the universe is whole and perfect just as it is but here on earth we have to deal with real life ... or make some effort to interact with this crazy dream.
I agree that there are a few things that I need to investigate as far as labels go. I had originally thought that labels weren't real but they ARE indeed real in the sense that they point to something that is objectively real. Red or rojo for example are both labels but they point to something that is real, the shade of color that we consider to be "red."

By saying hardcore christian I'm not trying to say that I have closed my mind up to him. I was describing my judgement of the identity of my uncle who happens to be a christian. There I go again contradicting myself. Do you not see the cognitive dissonance displayed in my words?
Filander wrote:Not looking for an argument but genuinely curious here... Why not just say, "Rape is wrong"?

And if you wanted to genuinely help the victim, wouldn't that include helping to bring the perpetrator to justice? In a court of law? Where the jury would indeed, pass judgment?

Really, I don't get it.
Because I honestly can not see how rape is "wrong..." I cannot understand subjective morality. I can only see rape as being rape. All I know is that if someone were trying to rape me I would make an effort to escape and if I were to see someone raping another person I would call the cops.

After all this time thinking I understood who I was it appears that I know nothing. I can't justify my own actions but I do KNOW what I would do in a few situation.

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Fore
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by Fore » Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:04 am

dannydawiz wrote:
Fore wrote: Would you like to be raped?
No I wouldn't. Why? The experience to me seems like it would be unpleasant. What is your point?
Is this not the answer to your question?
You do not want to be raped, so you would not wish this to happen to others.

Luke 6:31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

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Re: Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by dannydawiz » Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:47 am

KathleenBrugger wrote:It is said that one of the guardians of the temple of truth is Paradox. Paradox is guaranteed to confuse those who are not ready for the truth. Paradox means “a statement or proposition that, despite sound reasoning from acceptable premises, leads to a conclusion that seems senseless, logically unacceptable, or self-contradictory.”

There are two levels here. One is the level WW is talking about. That is the view from Oneness, which sees that there are no mistakes; everything is perfect; there is no right and wrong. To call something or someone wrong is to declare there is a mistake somewhere in the perfect unfolding of the universe. This is true but confusing.

The other level is that which most of us live on from day to day. This is the level of space-time, and our actions have real consequences. We live in societies that have a right to establish order and rules of behavior. Many of our rules are based on ancient codes of ethics that I believe are a product of our evolution as a social creature—don’t kill or hurt others and don’t steal are among the most basic. These ethics are also the foundation of our conscience. We can say it is wrong to rape another person, and you will be punished for doing so, because that helps make the kind of world we want to live in.

Yes morality is human-invented, relative, and changing, but that isn’t a bad thing. That means we can mold it to what is important in our time. For example, two hundred years ago it was moral to own slaves. Is any one sorry that we changed our minds on that one?

Why does a person do something like rape? I think what is important to remember is that most people are captive to their conditioned minds. They know not what they do. They are capable of all sorts of horrific things because of their twisted thinking. In my terminology, they’re insane. Crazy people do crazy things, like rape or murder. Here’s where I think I differ from your uncle: I don’t think of the rapist as a bad or evil person, I think of him as sick. And I think this is where WW was going with the lack of judgment. Sandyjoy said: “if this man were 'sane, whole, living aright' he would not be raping others.” Exactly. The proper response is to feel compassion for his suffering, along with that of the victim.

When we wake up we don’t need society’s rules any longer to make us behave. We come from love and naturally behave in ethical ways; we are compassionate, forgiving, understanding, caring, generous, considerate, kind, encouraging, supportive, helpful, patient, selfless, and honest.
I think so far out of everything I've read this is the one that makes sense.

It is true that if we did not have laws to govern ourselves and subjective morality to distinguish between right and wrong then society wouldn't be able to function as a whole. We need laws and a government to enforce them because if they didn't then there would be nothing to stop things like murder and theft from occurring. At the same time though I don't believe that if laws didn't exist everyone would be killing one another. As long as the desire for power and form exist in this world there will always be people taking advantage of others.

With the acceptance of subjective morality comes confusion however. For example is homosexuality right or wrong? According to the bible a homosexual should be put to death.

Leviticus 20:13
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."

If heaven and hell exist in objective reality then does this mean that all homosexuals deserve to be burned in eternal fire? Regardless of whether it was only their childhood conditioning that led them to be this way?
Putting religion aside I honestly see no problem with homosexuality. Does it harm anyone? No. Then why should it be considered wrong?
In terms of subjective reality how do you define what is wrong and what is right? Is it based on the amount of harm being done to humanity? Is it based on a god?

If heaven exists then I want to go there but at the same time I can't agree with all of gods moralities. The death penalty in Christianity is considered to be "right" and I don't see it that way.
I could never kill a human and blame them for their actions. That is just the way that they were brought up. It's societies fault for leading them to end up that way.

I'm only mentioning christianity because my uncle says that there is an overwhelming amount of evidence to support that it exists. He even went as far as to say that if I could find one thing that doesn't make sense about the bible then he would completely drop his religion.

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