Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

This is the place to post whatever questions you have related to the teachings of Eckhart Tolle. The rest of us will do whatever we can to help you achieve a better understanding :)
peas
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by peas » Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:10 pm

If we are seriously giving "believe in yourself, cause I believe in you" advice on this Eckhart Tolle forum then it's time to pause and smell the hydrangeas!

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SandyJoy
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by SandyJoy » Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:08 pm

peas wrote:If we are seriously giving "believe in yourself, cause I believe in you" advice on this Eckhart Tolle forum then it's time to pause and smell the hydrangeas!
You enjoy being the ET forum Police :lol: You are quite the little bull dog dogmatist. You have limited your role in life greatly.

And Hydrangeas have no fragrance-

Personally I think you got your ET stuff so distorted. But, hey that's what happened to the things the wise sage Jesus said too, and what Buddha said, and LaoTse, all them got mis-understood and re-mixed into controlling power-play 'better than thou' ideologies.

Not until you find Your Self will you ever be free from the false limitations you have put on yourself.

You are So Much More than you realize, and our journey here is to Realize the Glory and Dominion of this Self. You are unique, divine and ever growing richness and beauty. You can be these things and More---See, You Are That means you are the Living Light of All That Is or ever was--- and if you don't believe in your self, you have not found yourself. Otherwise You would Know Your Self and thus Be-Living In and As Your Self--

This Self-Knowing would be a given, an absolute fact, because you would KNOW You Exist and That You Are Here and Now the very Light of Truth as this Self-Knowing of Godhead Divine Mind and Its Awareness being the Only Presence Here which is Being the Very Existence that Is This; YOUR Self-Awareness.

Wake up to your Self find your Self-- Self-discovery-- You are Beauty, the Infinite Light, The Divine Intelligence, the Holy Presence of Being, the Untamed Light of the Song Celestial, the Vast Glory of this Living Power. Then you will find yourself fearless and free to do what you are here to do, to do for you world and for your others right here in the world time-space-form.

And Give and Love and Love some more. You have nothing to lose.

You have much to do while you are here. And I doubt that wagging a finger at those who do not abide your beliefs is one of the assignments you were given, you are like the church's preacher man. Keeping us all in line with your beliefs.

Wisdom, Truth, Reality comes forth from the Self-Identity. That's It. They are all one-in-the-same.

How close is the Truth? Can anything be closer than the Self you are? "The place whereon thou standest is Holy Ground!" Right now! Already! You and Now are All that Is. Take you place as the King of your Life, not the king of mine or any one else's-- and Live your Life to the fullness of Who You Are.

You are all that you are ever faced with-- Check it out. It is all about Self-Identity. I am the Only One Knowing that I Am -- and you are within All That I Am-- and that I shall assume goes the same for you in your life.
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

dijmart
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by dijmart » Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:38 pm

SandyJoy wrote:
peas wrote:If we are seriously giving "believe in yourself, cause I believe in you" advice on this Eckhart Tolle forum then it's time to pause and smell the hydrangeas!
You enjoy being the ET forum Police :lol: You are quite the little bull dog dogmatist. You have limited your role in life greatly.

And Hydrangeas have no fragrance-
:lol:

Sandy, I didn't realize you were so feisty!
Take what you like and leave the rest.

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SandyJoy
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by SandyJoy » Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:11 pm

dijmart wrote:
SandyJoy wrote:
peas wrote:If we are seriously giving "believe in yourself, cause I believe in you" advice on this Eckhart Tolle forum then it's time to pause and smell the hydrangeas!
You enjoy being the ET forum Police :lol: You are quite the little bull dog dogmatist. You have limited your role in life greatly.

And Hydrangeas have no fragrance-
:lol:

Sandy, I didn't realize you were so feisty!
Oh yes, you must have missed many of my posts around here-- I am indeed very feisty :lol: I am pretty easy and unconcerned about a lot of stuff and can let it go, no problem.

But sometimes I use a little "back off buster' when is necessary.
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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dannydawiz
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by dannydawiz » Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:52 pm

SandyJoy wrote: Find that Child again and you won't have to worry about others, you will just know for your self and do what is right for you. And really YOU are the only one who matters. It is all within you, alone and solitary. Like Jen says, I won't won't worry about you, you'll be fine, of course you will. And you do not have to worry about others, they are in good hands, just as you are.
If only I knew what it took in order to go back to that childish state of mind. I didn't care about right or wrong. Neither did I care about the future or the past.
Childhood has got to be the greatest presence anyone could ask for. I had no opinion of myself or my capabilities because I never stopped to think about it.
smiileyjen101 wrote:
In regards to my later statements about superiority and inferiority I apologize.
No need to apologize, Danny I was not taking offence, and neither did you commit any.

I was pointing to how perspectives become believed to be true. (be it in religion or cultural norms - anywhere where personal perspective is elevated to 'truth' and held onto, defended, used as a basis for other choices.)
What do you think I should do Jen?
I would not presume to choose, or answer for you, and neither do you need me to. For me, all life is, is a unique opportunity to experience - foo - whatever.

The greatest respect and regard I can offer is to tell you that I do not worry about you, I believe in you. If you can hold the same regard for your self (and others) the path will flow seamlessly wherever it will. Things will arise that poke at you (as you may have already noticed) and you'll ask the questions, then experience elements of them, and on it goes.
What are some of those universal truths you were speaking about?
Now that is a great question, answering it may take you a lifetime of experiences :wink:

I am happy to share my hindsight that you may pick upon to use as your foresight, discard anything that holds no interest.

In studying philosophies and ethics fields, and in asking that question experientially myself I've found very very few universal truths withstand the criteria, and even some of them that I've adopted, I'm not sure if they are just so within my own awareness, capacity and willingness to consider. Many that are considered to be universal either do not apply to all individuals, or to other species, or elements of the physical world.

So I'd suggest, don't assume that people don't lie, or kill, or rape, or steal or blaspheme or honour their father and mother, or any of the 10 commandments, legislations and philosophical doctrines, whether you do or not, if you do assume you are bound to be disappointed at some point. At the same time, don't assume that they do, be open to possibility either way.

Some even dispute that we are physically born, and therefore physically the body dies, but in my experience this seems to be a universal truth, all things that are born into physicality die to physicality and change in material form. From the moment we are born we are moving towards the demise of our bodies.

So in that I might suggest that all things are impermanent (in physical nature) is a universal truth. It's relative only within the comprehension of time, which is not universally real, it's a bit like a mathematical formula, it's just a means through which to understand and relate shared experience.

If this truth that all things are impermanent is met with gratitude and generosity, rather than fear then the preciousness of the fleetingness of it means all living things, and all physical experiences are sacred and precious and met with gratitude & generosity. On the other hand if it is met with fear then it will be considered as less than satisfactory.

Being in the world, but not of the world, means that we can embrace this ever changing relative 'reality' - a cyclone or tornado is just energy forming into 'wind', spinning until it stops spinning. A tsunami is just energy building in an ocean and flowing until it ebbs. A relationship is just a meeting of individuals for a shared time and possibly purpose, even if the purpose and the time of it is unknown. Emotions are arising responses to interpreted stimuli. A crisis is just an upset where our reality differs from our expectations and we respond to bring the two back into harmony. An insult is just an interpretation of an action, and an offence an interpretation of an action different to how we think we would respond.

This too will pass, is for me, a universal truth.

Another is an adopted one, that absolutely could be 'just me', just my awareness in my experience, but it appears to me that love (as in the energy of gratitude & generosity flowing in equilibrium) always, always creates a different experience than the energies of fear and separation. That love opens & unites and fear closes and separates the life force energies that every living thing shares in common.

That compassion (awareness that we are more alike than different, more one that separate) rides freely and confidently on the energies of love, and prejudices ride freely and confidently on the energies of fear, also seems to be universally true.

I just have not, and have tested many times, found an example where this is not universally true. Learning to overcome fear, not to eliminate it, or to avoid it or deny it, but to embrace it and love it as well, and allow love to flow does seem to mean facing and illuminating the false truths and recognising hypocrisy, in our selves and in others. Falling to fear at any part of that experience can and will create the sense of separation, give rise to prejudging things, and that's okay too, it's just a different experience.
Refer back to the previous truth.... this too will pass.

Apart from those, I am still playing with these two, haven't found any evidence to the contrary yet that universally stands up... every living thing is responding within its own awareness, capacity and willingness in any and every situation; and no choice is wrong, it just brings a different experience.
God to me according to their religion sounds like a hypocrite. He says to not kill and then he kills. The death penalty according to christianity IS considered to be moralistically ok.
This reminded me of another 'thing' but it might be a bit too theoretical - as it is above it is below, as it is within it is without.
It kind of speaks to that notion that what others think/say about you says more about themselves.

Those who wrote the bible (is this blasphemy? oh well) were writing it in accordance with their own moral principles and awareness, capacity and willingness in that time-space-situation.

It seems that the differences between the old testament and new testament writings do show a change of awareness, capacity and willingness in some areas to choose love over fear and in response to further understanding of natural and other phenomena. For instance in the old testament it's a 'sin' to combine different natural fibres, eg wool and cotton, wood and mortar - and in pure logical understanding there was probably logical wisdoms to keep them separate - the 'ply' and the strength of the different raw materials would / could create engineering and manufacturing 'problems' based on their different properties, densities and needs etc

The notion of 'sin' is sometimes benignly referred to as a realisation of a 'wrong thinking', an error of judgement or perception, expectation etc Until one realises there is an 'error' in it, there is no 'problem' with it. It's all natural and logical consequences unfolding based on our thinking and actions.

As with any doctrines the 'importance' of having this/these realisation/s might be pre-empted in fear and separation, making them 'punishable' here or in the 'hereafter'. Rather than them being a personal discovery through experience or compassion for experiences of others, (more like an aha moment in the unfolding of our awareness, capacity and willingness), which is how I tend to view 'stuff' after committing, and still committing, many, many, many infinitum 'sins' myself.

We are all perfectly imperfect and doing our best with what we have.

:wink: Gee, aren't you glad I didn't prescribe for you :wink:

What you say about everything being impermanent does seem to be a universal truth. The very existence of the planet earth as we know it seems to be impermanent. One day the sun will blow up and everything around us will go with it. This makes me question though is the universe itself impermanent? Does the universe that we live in as infinite as it goes every truly end?

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Re: Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by KathleenBrugger » Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:00 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote: So in that I might suggest that all things are impermanent (in physical nature) is a universal truth. It's relative only within the comprehension of time, which is not universally real, it's a bit like a mathematical formula, it's just a means through which to understand and relate shared experience.
....
love (as in the energy of gratitude & generosity flowing in equilibrium) always, always creates a different experience than the energies of fear and separation. That love opens & unites and fear closes and separates the life force energies that every living thing shares in common.
This is a really lovely essay on universal truths, jen. I pulled out what seemed to be the two truths you identified:
1. everything changes
2. love is the antidote to fear and separation

You mentioned Kant's Categorical Imperatives. Kant gave this as an example: "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law." That is, if you're wondering whether something is moral, imagine if everybody did it. Would you want to live in that world? This is like the golden rule: "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
We are ALL Innocent by Reason of Insanity
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peas
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by peas » Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:57 am

SandyJoy has finally lost her joy. Hopefully that's all she's lost. :?

Oh well, if you want me you'll find me amongst these:

Image

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Re: Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by smiileyjen101 » Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:23 am

This makes me question though is the universe itself impermanent? Does the universe that we live in as infinite as it goes every truly end?
The questions you ask, will all be (relatively) answered in the fullness of (relative) time Danny. Some things are within our ken, others not. Some things are ours to explore, others not. Are you keen on becoming an astrophysicist? :wink:
Peas said: If we are seriously giving "believe in yourself, cause I believe in you" advice on this Eckhart Tolle forum then it's time to pause and smell the hydrangeas!
Ah Peas, do you have so little awareness, capacity and willingness that you cannot embrace love and life (relative, physical, flawed and perfect) in all it's gory/glory?

I thought Sandy's post was delightful.

For my own part, I answered Danny's questions as authentically and lovingly (with absolute gratitude & generosity towards his experience and questions) as I am able. I spoke to the 16 year old enquirer as I would have with all these further years of experience, spoken to myself at that age. Oh crap I mentioned 'self' again. Well peas, this is my dream, you are but a character in it :wink: as I am in yours. I love you too by the way. That I may be your offending 'villain' at times does not mean that I have to cast you in the same role. No choice is wrong, it just brings a different experience.
With regards to ET - what do you think of his - if you are making enemy, obstacle, means to an end of a person, thing or situation, this is ego in control. notions?
Kathleen said: You mentioned Kant's Categorical Imperatives. Kant gave this as an example: "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law." That is, if you're wondering whether something is moral, imagine if everybody did it. Would you want to live in that world? This is like the golden rule: "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
I heard a philosopher the other day say that most philosophers and psychologists think Kant was nuts :wink: with the standards he espoused. It certainly calls us to a high level of personal response ability.

A thing I would highlight about the golden rule and Kant's Categorical Imperative is that it's (close your eyes Peas, this may offend you, or maybe not, maybe this will really open them) personal. Just because a world that we would like to live in would require this or that action or response, doesn't mean that we really do live in it, or even that that response would be appreciated. And, we cannot speak for, or hold others to, our vision of it.

So I guess I'm saying I've learned to add a phrase to it ~ Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and don't be disappointed if they don't reciprocate in the same manner (or even appreciate your perspective).

I say this because I was raised in a family where telling the 'truth' no matter what, was uppermost and I wrongly thought that the wider world was just an extension of my home life. Some of my greatest disappointments (and faux pars) have been where people had a different interpretation of the the 'truth' than I did, and different levels of honesty and capacity for honesty, in awareness or not.

I was (and still am to a degree) naive beyond naive as a consequence.

My dad was an agnostic with a really brilliant, analytical mind. If you had a perspective, or reasoning for an action or behaviour it would be tested against reason and practicality and the likely path of natural consequence (and probably without him necessarily knowing it, Kantian philosophy). He would stand up to a 'wrong' uniformly and justly, his application of the ten commandments except the first one - he didn't have the 'proof' of a 'god', his acts of genuine charity and brotherhood would put most Christians to shame, he would forgive any offence except lying about, or abdicating responsibility for the consequences of them. And humanity's biggest failing in his eyes was their reluctance to learn from their history and insanity, in the 'insanity is doing the same thing, the same way, and expecting a different result". He cleaned up Belsen death camp after WW2 and his realisation of what war really is, and man's capacity for inhumanity towards others touched ever fibre of his being and could never be washed away.

He was pretty much the personification of Kant's ideals and the golden rule, it translated in my understanding as the world I lived in. OOOPS!!!

And hence my reminding my self we all respond according to our own awareness, capacity and willingness. And my tagline below.

In experience, I learned that living within the golden rule is totally personal, one cannot hold any other to any aspect of it. The perspective itself may not be shared (as in others may do things that they would not like done to them self) and with perspectives that may not be shared as to how we would like the world to be.

So it's one of those things I now hold lightly to, in experience of the wisdom of it, rather than ram down others' throats or expect it from others.


If we think about it logically, sadomasochism is some people's 'dream' world.....
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen

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Re: Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by SandyJoy » Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:00 am

peas wrote:SandyJoy has finally lost her joy. Hopefully that's all she's lost.

Oh well, if you want me you'll find me amongst these:

Not really Peas, It brings me great Joy to be my self, alive and joyfully feisty,energetic, creative, tender, funny, kind, loving and open to Life--- Yes, I am full of Joy--the Joy that I found out the sheer pleasure it is to come Home to Me and to be fully and wholly myself -- and I hope everyone finds such freedom, including you.
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

peas
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by peas » Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:15 am

Oh no! Now SmiileyJen has lost her smile.

The end is nigh, my friends.

Never fear. I'm still tiny, green and juicy!

Image

Now, back to sniffing those hydrangeas ...

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smiileyjen101
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by smiileyjen101 » Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:46 am

Peas you are turning your taking of offence at the actions of others into dishonest projections beyond your awareness and capacity about them. Are you seeking attention Maverick? 'your ego is writing cheques your body can't cash.'


Are you trying to be intentionally rude and dogmatic? If so to what end?

Just so you widen your perspective I am well aware that Smileyjen doesn't own, rule, or command her smile, it comes and goes as it pleases. Whether it is here or not does not define 'me'.

The topic is Cognitive Dissonance and Morality - what are your views?
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen

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Re: Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by treasuretheday » Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:50 pm

Well, I realize biblical literalism exerts a tenacious grip! The usual response that stems from this mentality is to abandon and reject religion, to conclude there is no relevance to the Bible, to see no alternative but to dismiss all religion in general, Christianity in particular.

Seems there are but two choices: Biblical literalism, or rejection of the Bible as holding nothing of value. Both approaches share a profound ignorance of the Bible.

Fundamentalists who quote the Bible as the final authority have little to no understanding about how the Bible came into being, rendering their approach incompetent. For biblical literalists, there is always an enemy to defeat, territory to defend.

Conversely, often when I read writings of atheists and other secularists I find the Religion, Christianity, and Bible they reject to be the same Religion, Christianity and Bible that I reject! I only think it sad that there exists such a profound lack of awareness that there is...another way that does not require throwing babies out with the bathwater. The idea prevails that we must either live in ignorance or abandon any religious life altogether.

The Bible has been sorely misunderstood, misquoted, misused. Frankly, many Christians are biblically illiterate. Relatively few have plumbed its depths, scaled its heights. Many only pay lip service to the call to read this book, and choose instead, to follow the church "leader" like well-behaved kindergartners. Certainty is required In the so-called Bible Belt, & I am convinced that the Bible is seldom actually read by most there!

This collection of books came into being out of the experience of humans trying to make sense of life and living. It is a tribal story -- a pre-modern, ever-changing, ever-growing story.

Some of the the characters have threads of history attached to them --- Moses, Elijah, Joshua --- and even those threads run well beneath the fabric of myth and fantasy. Other characters are entirely literary creations. The living "Word of God" remains so often undiscovered beneath the written words.

The image of God begins as a dictorial figure; a war-like tribal chief. But we continue reading and watch...as this idea of God evolves and changes and becomes one that is loving and just; one that even urges us to love our enemies, let our enemies love us. This God calls us into a New Consciousness.
Life itself is the proper binge.
-Julia Child

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Re: Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by SandyJoy » Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:21 pm

Treasure's post reminded me of Something that got missed here. There certainly are deep and mystical things in the Bible. There certainly are deeply metaphorical and meaningful Light in the Bible. The Bible has become the 'most important book' over these 2000 years for a Good Reason. And even though it has been re-edited and re-written and mis understood and mis-used--- There is a deep and Mystical Power in the Light within those pages.

If you have ever been torn down and stripped and left alone in great darkness and sorrow and pain, and if you have ever asked God for help and If you were bent in humbled sorrow and led to the Bible, ever guided to pick up the Bible at those times, you will have been shown the Light you were looking for. You will have opened a page, and read some verse there that was as if it came directly from God's Angelic holy guides.

Have you ever opened the Bible and come upon Psalms? It is Glory in Words. It is the Pure Light in times of need.

The words in the Bible, when read from the Light of an Open Heart and with open mind--- They are far more powerful than any thing "Tolle" could write. You can find the Secrets and the Infinite Light radiating from the words. There is much Magic and Mystery in the Bible. One has to be Free from "prejudice' and cynicism and logic when the Magic happens. But in Pure Innocence and Love that Bible book is Pure Magic.

In the Beginning was the Word and the Word was with God--- When you hear that with the ears that can hear--- you find that to be one of the most Profound and moving and deep and beyond the deepest of holiness statements about Reality ---

This one saved my Life once many years ago and I will share it here with you so that maybe someday if you need to find your way you may remember this:

23 The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.

2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.


And Thank You Dear Father of Life for the Light that brought Me Home -- and for this Grace that came to me--- I Love You with all my heart and all my soul--

Religion can be a very personal connection to God without a church or intermediary between you and God the Light of Life. One to One in Love and Truth. The Child Lives and Freedom is Real.
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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Re: Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by KathleenBrugger » Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:37 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:A thing I would highlight about the golden rule and Kant's Categorical Imperative is that it's (close your eyes Peas, this may offend you, or maybe not, maybe this will really open them) personal. Just because a world that we would like to live in would require this or that action or response, doesn't mean that we really do live in it, or even that that response would be appreciated. And, we cannot speak for, or hold others to, our vision of it.

So I guess I'm saying I've learned to add a phrase to it ~ Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and don't be disappointed if they don't reciprocate in the same manner (or even appreciate your perspective).
Wow! I would have loved to meet your father!! Thanks for sharing about him. I think your addendum to the Golden Rule is very wise. Since we're talking Bible here, they nailed Jesus up on a cross--that's how misunderstood love can be. This brings to mind Gandhi's exhortation to "be the change we wish to see." If we wait until everyone else is acting the way we think people should behave we might wait forever. Instead, act from the Golden Rule and be a light to others, be an example for others to follow--and don't be surprised if not everyone agrees. But if you're coming from love you know it.
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Re: Cognitive Dissonance & Morality

Post by smiileyjen101 » Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:51 am

Yum :D

I have a bible that is so loved and well read and flicked through and worn... there are great wisdoms within it and an interesting array of different nuances on perspectives of the same story. Bit like watching ten different network news bulletins - angle, interest, values, leanings, sources change both hypotheses and supporting evidences. And at the same time I adore NDW's 'god' in CWG and the tales of monks' experiences in other doctrines and records of wisdom interpreted and translated; and the tales of the elders shared by camp fire or at their knees, or with an arm around my shoulder, or now in published form tales of experience and how one has interpreted and used knowledge gained in experience .. wisdom.
Sandy said:
If you have ever been torn down and stripped and left alone in great darkness and sorrow and pain, and if you have ever asked God for help and If you were bent in humbled sorrow and led to the Bible, ever guided to pick up the Bible at those times, you will have been shown the Light you were looking for. You will have opened a page, and read some verse there that was as if it came directly from God's Angelic holy guides.
:D or another book will fall open at your feet as you walk passed a bookshelf, or a flower will command your attention, or an ocean will soothe you with its ebb and flow all in its own time, or a friend will call, or some poster on a forum will open our eyes to a different perspective :D ....

Forgive my me Sandy and thank you for posting the 23rd Psalm - I'm authentically ...well... 'me' and I am glad that you found hope and solace in the psalm. As I read it here now if I insert 'love' wherever Lord or He is, it resonates beautifully. I guess you might translate your Lord as love anyway so same difference.

I didn't really know it except for a bastardisation of it on a car bumper sticker that said "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for I am the meanest son of a bitch in the valley' or some such thing throughout my rebellious teen years. But it's become something of a 'thing' for me too.

At my grandfather's funeral when I was maybe 22, in a more religious service than I, or he, might have expected (my Dad's Dad) don't get me wrong I was schooled in the christian faith and knew most of the hymns etc and would sing and join in with services with confidence and enthusiasm as I was the lead solo in the school choir and on their public speaking team... it was 'expected' of me.

and then just as my tears were literally blinding me and I was drowning in sorrow and probably even needing some strength to stand, we were asked to all stand up and read this psalm aloud... in my confident, used to projecting my voice voice....the show must go on kicking in, (even though I couldn't see to read it properly).. we got to that line and I recognised the beginning of it - I knew this really confidently and so it boomed.. and the bumper sticker ending fell out :shock: and bounced around the chapel.

The preacher shook his head, looking around the congregation convinced that he could not have possibly heard what he thought he did ....

But do you know something my Granda would have also shook his head, and laughed in love for me as he knew me - only I would make such a mistake so confidently and naively and innocently; my Dad had he been there would have been mortified, and when I told him about it he too shook his head and smiled and said he didn't know what his Dad might have thought, probably he would have laughed, probably.

I embraced my own embarrassment and know that love loves me anyway and would take no offence where none was intended. So it's a special psalm for me too, just maybe in a different way :wink: Absolutely there were those that did take offence and would have had me hung, drawn and quartered... ah well.

Edit: I think the bit where Jesus tired and being protected by his disciples says "Suffer (the) little children to come unto me'... he was talking about me :lol:
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen

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