can you get eckhart tolle to talk about social anxiety?

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peas
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Re: can you get eckhart tolle to talk about social anxiety?

Post by peas » Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:55 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
peas wrote:The very essence of the ego is at the core of anxiety and depression. It is a bondage that does not need to exist.
Are you saying the ego does not need to exist, or are you referring to the anxiety and depression as not needing to exist? Or is it both?

WW

It is a necessary part of the evolution of human consciousness, but has served its purpose of moving us to the next stage. More and more people are awakening from the sleep caused by excessive mental identification. Depression and anxiety cannot asleep for those awake, so the answer is to awaken.

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ashley72
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Re: can you get eckhart tolle to talk about social anxiety?

Post by ashley72 » Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:05 am

peas wrote:Social Anxiety is not special. It is just an intense fear of the unknown. And if we follow fear to its end we find it cannot exist without time - hence the power of now. So, Eckhart says be present. There you find all the answers, including answers about fear.
You seem to believe fear primarily arises because people rely on episodic memories.

If you study some neuroscience you would soon learn about "The Method of Loci", also called the memory palace, which is a process where episodic memory is mentally associated with specific physical locations. The method relies on memorized spatial relationships to establish, order, and recollect memorial content. This is how people remember where they live, how to get to work. Where the toilet is in their house. :lol:

Having episodic memory is absolutely normal & core nervous system function of navigating physical space. Which has nothing to do with why people develop anxiety disorders. Anxiety disorders develop because sufferers get tricked into treating something non-dangerous as dangerous. This fearful episode is usually stored as an episodic memory.. because this is how we remember events.

The sufferer then starts to use avoidance or safety behaviors as a coping mechanism. These anxiety disorders can then usually progress to a secondary nervous illness, where the sufferer starts treating the nervous response or symptoms of anxiety as dangerous which causes a positive feedback loop i.e a more pronounce nervous response because the sufferer is now nervous of their nerves!

All anxiety disorders can be effectively treated with exposure therapy, facing the fear and allowing the sufferer to experience the nervous symptoms without avoidance. This is usually a physical location where the last episodic memory occurred. The sufferer then has to stay with the nervous symptom until they subside. If the nervous symptoms subside without avoidance the sufferer has effectively stopped treating the nervous symptoms as dangerous. This treatment usually takes repeated exposure to recovery from this kind of nervous illness. With effective treatment that physical location will have anew episodic memory (recall) which isn't associated with a nervous response or illness. So the sufferer won't be exposed to nervous memories next time they return to the physical location over time.

The underlying anxiety disorder (1st order) can then be treated with cognitive behavior therapy and more exposure therapy. These 1st order anxiety disorders have entirely different cognitive issues, doubt, shame, guilt, lack of self worth, overly self conscious etc. This is where cognitive therapy helps.

peas
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Re: can you get eckhart tolle to talk about social anxiety?

Post by peas » Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:17 am

Ashley, by now you know that I am not interested in your neuroscience material or any other scientific material you have been sharing.

I've made it very clear, and if there is any ounce of muddyness, let me ask you right now in plain and simple language: please stop trolling me by posting scientific material in response to my posts. I find your posts to be off topic and disingenuous to the real focus of these forums, which is to discuss the teachings of Eckhart Tolle and other similar teachers.

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ashley72
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Re: can you get eckhart tolle to talk about social anxiety?

Post by ashley72 » Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:40 pm

If you have absolutely no interest in science, why are you discussing social anxiety disorders?

If you believe thinking is the root of your problems.. why write your own thoughts here?

I mean seriously... it seems a bit ridiculous & without the faculty of reason to criticise people who think, and then write your own thoughts down to express your dislike for thinkers. Who are you fooling but yourself?

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Rob X
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Re: can you get eckhart tolle to talk about social anxiety?

Post by Rob X » Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:57 pm

peas wrote:Ashley, by now you know that I am not interested in your neuroscience material or any other scientific material you have been sharing.

I've made it very clear, and if there is any ounce of muddyness, let me ask you right now in plain and simple language: please stop trolling me by posting scientific material in response to my posts. I find your posts to be off topic and disingenuous to the real focus of these forums, which is to discuss the teachings of Eckhart Tolle and other similar teachers.
Come on Peas, Ashley is not trolling you, he is merely presenting balance with an informed perspective on the subject. Ashley tirelessly advises and points those with mental concerns to relevant and practical resources on the subject - this is surely to be welcomed here.

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dijmart
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Re: can you get eckhart tolle to talk about social anxiety?

Post by dijmart » Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:44 pm

peas wrote: I've made it very clear, and if there is any ounce of muddyness, let me ask you right now in plain and simple language: please stop trolling me by posting scientific material in response to my posts. I find your posts to be off topic and disingenuous to the real focus of these forums, which is to discuss the teachings of Eckhart Tolle and other similar teachers.
Hmm, I think an inward "look see" may be in order here Peas. Perhaps, some awareness as to why Ashley irritates you so much? He doesn't irritate me, if I'm not interested in his topic or a post I just don't respond, but you seem to be taking this very personally. So, you may want to investigate that within yourself. :wink:

Edit: Yes, by what you wrote I "assume" you are irritated, but I'll ask, are you irritated? I edited, because I heard Phil in my ear .."Don't make assumptions".
Take what you like and leave the rest.

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ashley72
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Re: can you get eckhart tolle to talk about social anxiety?

Post by ashley72 » Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:20 pm

Peas,

I have lived with panic disorder & agoraphobia for a significant period of time... It was so acute at one stage I actually had some episodes of depersonalisation/derealisation ...I'd have to be very cruel & twisted to troll people who were suffering with the same disorder/illness.

I am very genuine when it comes to talking about mental disorders and pointing nervous sufferers to the most effective treatment path.

Whilst I am a big fan of Eckhart Tolle and his "Power of Now" pointers... which I still prescribe to BTW! Being in the moment is not a magic bullet for overcoming anxiety disorders or nervous illness. In fact, it may even make it worse for a nervous sufferer who is hyper-vigilant towards their nervous symptoms.

In my own case, I only started to recover when I realised that I needed to expose myself to my "nervous symptoms" in all the situations they arise, and not try and resist or avoid those nervous responses in any way. I just had to interpret & treat the nervous symptoms as "discomfort" and completely normal response. Any form of resist even very subtle forms would only keep me fearing those nerves in the future. It is not about eliminating rational fears, it is about eliminating irrational fears than arise because of treating something dangerous like your nervous response... When clearly a nervous response to fear is not dangerous but merely a discomfort if it occurs at inappropriate times.

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ellen_
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Re: can you get eckhart tolle to talk about social anxiety?

Post by ellen_ » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:04 am

Hi,

Having suffered from social anxiety I can tell you that from Tolle's perspective, social anxiety it is no more ''complicated'' to understand than any other condition or disease, be it mental or physical. It is all caused by our ego, and therefore I believe there is no ''specific'' advice than that which you already know.

If you (re)read The Power of Now and one day manage to dissociate from your thoughts completely ALL of your anxiety will go. But do not despair if it takes time. As says Eckhart Tolle, everyone's personal pain-body also partakes of the collective pain-body which is the ''pain accumulated in the collective human psyche over thousands of years through disease, torture, war, murder, cruelty, madness, and so on''.

There is no other possible reason for social anxiety than being possessed by your thoughts. Or as says Eckhart Tolle: ''It is not so much that you use your mind wrongly - you usually don't use it at all. It uses you. This is the disease.''

My experience was painful, the anxieties got so strong that everything collapsed and I fell into a deep depression. I was in bed for months, not able to even have a simple conversation or get out in the street. This does not have to happen for you, I am sure you can cure from your social anxiety by following Eckhart Tolle's teachings ( I wish I knew him at the time). But the good thing was that after having gotten out of the depression, my ego slowly began to die. It took me another depression and almost ten years to finally get rid of it completely (my ego as well as the anxieties :-). The way to awakening was rocky because instead of looking into my past to find the deeply rooted reasons for my anxieties, doctors prescribed medicine. I was very thankful but it only numbed the pain. What ultimately really cured me, was the relationship with my loved one. In my case, it was a substitute for therapy. It is only after I managed to open up completely, be honest about my past, that I was able to be myself for the first time in my life (feel comfortable in my skin:-). Now, it's not about who you open up to, it's just about opening up...seeing where the evil thoughts, insecurities come from, accept it and it will go away.

If someone wrote me something as I am writing you now at the time, I would've thought ''little do they know about how much I suffer and how bad my condition is.'' . That is what I would've thought because when in pain and suffering, we always hope for a magic cure. I saw how you emphasized ''i don't mean just shyness'' and used the words ''complicated'' and ''specific''. That is the ego. If you want to get rid of it, see your condition as no more complicated than any other condition. Here's what says Eckhart Tolle: ''An illness can either strengthen or weaken the ego. If you complain, feel selfpity, or resent being ill, your ego becomes stronger. It also becomes stronger if you make the illness art of your conceptual identity: “I am a sufferer of such and such a disease.” See how profound it is? You shouldn't even see yourself as suffering from anything. He explains how this projection of disease in time and identification with it, is no good in ''The Power of Now''. I really suggest you (re)read it having in mind that you have no disease, it is our thoughts that drive us insane and ill. Do what Eckhart Tolle suggests to do in order to connect with your body, become aware of your thoughts and magic will happen. IT WORKS.

Your ego needs an identity, convictions etc.´, people who for example have traveled a lot ( are not sure what nationality they belong to), or who are physically different (be it skin color, looks, weight), or who are just very unordinary (because of their family or other), in short: people who are in some kind DIFFERENT are the ones who often suffer from social anxiety. They might seem no different in other peoples eyes but they themselves feel like aliens when they get out in society. In my case, I felt so uncomfortable most of the time I can't even describe how little I was able to enjoy life. My thoughts were killing me 90% of the time. Every time I'd be near someone I would imagine a billion things of why they are looking at me this or that way, interpret it my way and on it went ......for hours.....and hours......worrying non stop about situations I found myself in, about other people, sometimes not able to breathe or sleep till one day I got sick. My thoughts tortured all life out of me. Do not let that happen to you.

The good news is that there is ALWAYS a deeply rooted reason and once you identify it (become aware of your thoughts), accept them, surrender....they have no power over you, you are free. Eckhart Tolle says ''I cannot tell you any spiritual truth that deep within you don't know already. All I can do is remind you of what you have forgotten.''

Much love
Ellen

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Re: can you get eckhart tolle to talk about social anxiety?

Post by Phil2 » Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:49 am

ellen_ wrote:
Eckhart Tolle: ''It is not so much that you use your mind wrongly - you usually don't use it at all. It uses you. This is the disease.''
Thanks for the quote Ellen, this cannot be said enough ...

... and btw nice posting ...

:)
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)

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ashley72
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Re: can you get eckhart tolle to talk about social anxiety?

Post by ashley72 » Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:21 am

ellen_ wrote:Having suffered from social anxiety I can tell you that from Tolle's perspective, social anxiety it is no more ''complicated'' to understand than any other condition or disease, be it mental or physical. It is all caused by our ego, and therefore I believe there is no ''specific'' advice than that which you already know.
Hi Ellen,

Firstly I'm glad you don't suffer from social anxiety anymore. However, I'm going to have to politely disagree with you when you say that social anxiety is caused by our ego. Everybody has an ego, and 90% of the folks (with egos) don't suffer with social anxiety disorder... so I'm afraid you need to dig a little deeper if you want to understand why 10% of folks suffer with social anxiety.

People who suffer from a social anxiety disorder actually treat social gatherings as a very "dangerous" situations they have to avoid because they have catastrophized a previous social event. This occurs because the sufferer had initial nervous episode which they didn't tolerate we'll because they were treating their nervous response as "dangerous"... Rather then treat that initial nervous disturbance as merely discomfort they treated as something they couldn't handle and had to avoid. This creates a positive feedback loop, being nervous of your nerves. It's actually clinically referred to as a panic attack. The sufferer then fears having another panic attack at the next social gathering... This makes the nervous sufferer more hyper-vigilant to their nerves at the next social gathering and this makes it likely that the sufferer will find the next social gathering difficult. This is how the social anxiety becomes a disorder.

Thinking is not the problem

Everybody thinks to make sense of the world and 90% of the people that turn up to social gatherings are thinking, conversing and having lots of fun... and don't have a panic attack. So why then would thinking be a problem? Is it possible to turn up to a social gathering and expect not to think if you want to participate and talk with others... I don't think so!

What someone with a social anxiety needs to do is turn up to the social event they are dreading, & expose themselves to the nerves and then treat those initial nervous as merely "discomfort". They need to think, talk and just be social at the event. They can talk about themselves and let others talk about themselves... there is absolutely nothing wrong with this. I have a life story and others like to hear what I've been doing with myself. They don't what to here that I'm pure awareness and I'm egoless. I guarantee anyone who tackles a social anxiety disorder with the attitude thinking & ego is the problem & should be opposed, won't recover from their disorder.
With anxiety disorders, you get what you oppose, and Social Anxiety Disorder is no exception. ~ Dave Carbonell, Ph.D.
Anyone that opposes their anxious thoughts, is actually treating those anxious thoughts as dangerous, so will end up with more anxious thoughts. Positive feedback loop.

Anyone that opposes their socially awkward ego, is actually treating their socially awkward ego as dangerous, so will end up with a more socially awkward ego. Positive feedback loop.


This is excellent resource http://www.anxietycoach.com/socialanxietydisorder.html

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Phil2
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Re: can you get eckhart tolle to talk about social anxiety?

Post by Phil2 » Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:51 am

ashley72 wrote:[ Everybody has an ego, and 90% of the folks (with egos) don't suffer with social anxiety disorder... so I'm afraid you need to dig a little deeper if you want to understand why 10% of folks suffer with social anxiety.
lol ... reminds me this joke from Carl Jung:

"Show me a sane person and I’ll cure him for you."

Ego IS the insanity ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)

Phil2
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Re: can you get eckhart tolle to talk about social anxiety?

Post by Phil2 » Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:01 am

ashley72 wrote:
Thinking is not the problem
From this very site about Byron Katie:

http://www.inner-growth.info/power_of_n ... hat_is.htm

"A thought is harmless unless we believe it. It's not our thoughts, but the attachment to our thoughts, that causes suffering. Attaching to a thought means believing that it's true, without inquiring. A belief is a thought that we've been attaching to, often for years.
Most people think that they are what their thoughts tell them they are."


Also Mooji:

"A thought without belief is nothing at all, a thought with belief can start a war" (Mooji)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04XAG_KsHvg
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)

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ashley72
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Re: can you get eckhart tolle to talk about social anxiety?

Post by ashley72 » Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:34 pm

Phil,

Thinking and the ego does not cause a social anxiety disorder.

What causes a social anxiety disorder is "irrationally" treating a nervous response to socialising with someone as "dangerous" & something to be feared & avoided.

You like quotes?
"The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

Phil2
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Re: can you get eckhart tolle to talk about social anxiety?

Post by Phil2 » Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:23 pm

ashley72 wrote:
What causes a social anxiety disorder is "irrationally" treating a nervous response to socialising with someone as "dangerous" & something to be feared & avoided.

You like quotes?
"The most important question a person can ask is: Is the Universe a friendly place?"

Albert Einstein
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)

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ellen_
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Re: can you get eckhart tolle to talk about social anxiety?

Post by ellen_ » Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:59 am

Dear Ashley,

I fully understand everything you say. I admire your willpower and strength in trying to find a way out of that horrible thing that is social anxiety.At the time I wouldn't even have dreamt of visiting a forum to talk about my anxieties. As said, I'd rather think ''What do they understand about how I suffer''. What usually happens is that we then get lost in the longest scientific explanations of our illness (the more complicated the better), to really, clearly, fully, make the point: ''no one knows what it's like'', ''no one knows what I have to endure''. We lose ourselves in explaining how extraordinary our condition is. What comes along is we identify with the disease/ condition fully. ''I am a sufferer of such and such''. This is what Eckhart Tolle advises NOT TO do. It is the same as identifying with a religion or political viewpoint. It comes from the ego and only leads to conflict. Ego is the disease.

I really fully, truly understand every word you write. I doubt that the number of times I repeat I understand you and have been through it (social anxiety most of my life), will change your view point on what I say. But see it this way: I was only trying to answer your initial question which was ''Eckhart Tolle's view point on social anxiety''. I firmly believe that most of what he has to say on social anxiety, as well as on any other disease for that matter, is already conveyed in his books. And so, all I did was try to help you the best I can, using this material. Now of course you can quote others or share links to external pages, which is all fine, but you asked what Eckhart Tolle would say! He'd say ''Ego is insanity''. Thinking is the disease!

Isn't the answer to ALL your questions in that quote? I think you might have misinterpreted it because you write ''Everybody has an ego'', well no, Eckhart Tolle's ego died when he was 29. That is how he became enlightened and was able to find inner stillness. It may really help to re-read ''The Power of Now'', I believe it contains most of the answers you are looking for.

''The pain-body wants to survive, just like every other entity in existence, and it can only survive if it gets you to unconsciously identify with it. It can then rise up, take you over, "become you," and live through you.'' says Eckhart Tolle. Don't let that happen.

Greetings,
Ellen

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