Pain body or depression

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Pain body or depression

Postby xpansion » Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:31 pm

I'm wondering how do you know the difference between if you're experiencing your pain body or depression. I'm generally not a very happy person. In my younger years I experienced a lot of bullying. Then when I left school I took a lot of designer drugs. It was a lot of fun at times but In hindsight I can see that I was self medicating. Over the years I have suffered from a lack of confidence and felt very unhappy at times. I have difficulty making friends and feel unmotivated to have a career and make money and fit into the western capitalist system mostly because I feel there is no job that interests me. I went to psychologists and they told me I'm dysthymic and tried to get me to do cognitive behaviour therapy. I tried to do it but mostly failed. I took anti depressants for a year and felt like a different person. I felt like I could cope better, I felt I was achieving something and I felt like I was connecting with people more.
Most days I'm fine but occasionally I have a very dark mood that over comes me and I go into a spiral of negative thinking. I feel trapped and desperate to escape. It's like I suddenly have a glimpse that my life in western culture is a delusion, that I'm not free at all. That I'm living in an aggressive busy city in which everyone is just working their butts off their whole life then they get old and die. I feel really negative about everything. I feel like life is futile. I feel very intensely sad and lonely.
After reading about the pain body I'm wondering is it normal to feel this way, is this just my pain body or am I depressed and in need of medication?
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Re: Pain body or depression

Postby karmarider » Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:36 am

xpansion wrote:I'm wondering how do you know the difference between if you're experiencing your pain body or depression.


I think they are the same. ET's "pain body" refers to the reactive bundle of remembered and conditioned pains and hurts. Depression, in my view, is the result of self-hating beliefs. It's a particular reaction to the pain-body.


Is this just my pain body or am I depressed and in need of medication?


I took anti-depressants on-and-off for many years, and I have not needed medication now for five or more (I don't remember) years. Meds do not cure the problem; but they do relieve the symptoms and can make life more manageable. In my experience, medication had not retarded any kind of spiritual progress. And so if meds help you, take them.
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Re: Pain body or depression

Postby Phil2 » Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:04 am

xpansion wrote:After reading about the pain body I'm wondering is it normal to feel this way, is this just my pain body or am I depressed and in need of medication?


I would recommend to you a very interesting book I read recently (also see the discussion I started on this here):

The Mindful Way through Depression - Freeing Yourself from Chronic Unhappiness

BY MARK WILLIAMS; JOHN TEASDALE; ZINDEL SEGAL; JON KABAT-ZINN

Audio version also available on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raBlERzb_S4

Also many conferences from Jon Kabat-Zinn available on Youtube ...

This book explains that instead of reacting to painful events with 'experiential avoidance', which is the habitual way for our defense system to avoid painful experiences, we can instead fully live those painful emotions by directly observing the effects in our body (tensions, rapid breath, aches, fast heart beat etc.).

So instead of constantly repressing painful emotions, better live those fully, and doing this we can get rid of them and heal our emotional wounds by experiencing our painful emotions and become more resilient to our compulsive self-destructive negative thoughts which cause our depression.

The authors speak of switching from habitual 'doing mode' (thought, analysis, problem solving etc.) to a 'being mode', which 'allows' the emotions to be fully experienced consciously and mindfully ...

I think this is totally in line with Eckhart Tolle's teachings who always recommends awareness of the body, and as he says to "inhabit our body" especially in stressful situations ... the body brings you back to the now ... to beingness ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)
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Re: Pain body or depression

Postby disengaged » Sat Aug 09, 2014 5:53 pm

Hi, Just want to quickly point out an obvious error in your thinking at this moment. It seems like you think the pain body and depression belong to you. Well the good news is even if you want to own they, you cannot. There is simply no way. They come and go according to their own liking, I found.

Try something very simple. Next time when you start to think life is futile, say to yourself that thought doesn't belong to me and then observe what happens. In fact, any stressful thoughts is a sign that you start to create ownership to a problem, which by itself is a manifestation of the unmanifested, so it's neither right nor wrong, but why create problem when there is no problem. Really hope this would provide slight help to your situation.
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Re: Pain body or depression

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:58 pm

Hello xpansion, thank you for sharing your experience with us.

You aren't alone in feeling like this. Many are seeing the futility of the pursuit for happiness via purely material means. That you are aware of this is a wonderful, beautiful thing. Our feelings are a compass. When we feel bad about an experience it is our Higher Self advising us not to go that way. When we feel good about an experience, it is our Higher Self saying 'yes! That way!' Learning how this compass works will serve us all well in aligning with the Greater Purpose of our Higher Selves.

How comfortable do you feel with slowing down your thoughts? If you can be still and feel into your negativity you can release it. I'd probably be able to offer some better advice with a bit more information about your personal situation and experiences with spiritual-type techniques and what 'level' you feel you are at spiritually. There is always a way to turn negativity into positivity and turn depression into joy. I'm a living example, as I was suicidally depressed for a long time but these days that feels like another lifetime. I have found my Self and the Joy of it overflows me! To share this with others is important now. I offer myself to you with open arms!

Love, Peace, Joy,

Jack
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Re: Pain body or depression

Postby epiphany55 » Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:53 pm

It's important to note that some forms of depression are more to do with chemical imbalance/deficiency and the physiology of the brain as opposed to environmentally/socially conditioned depression.

Pain body linked depression is conditioned purely by the social environment, as far as I understand.

But ultimately the physiologically induced depression can be looked at, by a conscious awareness, in the same way as socially induced depression. As disengaged said, the depression, whatever its source, cannot be said to belong to you. The only purpose of the physiological/social distinction, in my opinion, is to determine whether medication is needed. With socially induced depression, medication would still work, but it doesn't get to the root of the problem, which is the collective neuroses of the social group you are a part of and your reaction to it. With that, a simple change of perspective is required, not drugs.

ET, and many others, offer that new perspective.
Thought is the object, not the essence, of consciousness.
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Re: Pain body or depression

Postby xpansion » Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:53 am

Phil2 wrote:
I would recommend to you a very interesting book I read recently (also see the discussion I started on this here):

The Mindful Way through Depression - Freeing Yourself from Chronic Unhappiness

BY MARK WILLIAMS; JOHN TEASDALE; ZINDEL SEGAL; JON KABAT-ZINN

Audio version also available on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raBlERzb_S4

Also many conferences from Jon Kabat-Zinn available on Youtube ...



Thank you. I already have that book and audio too and although I find the ideas helpful, like most of these kind of books when I first happen upon them I initially feel a sense of relief by what they say and then I tend to forget as I go about my daily life and so it feels as though things dont change that much. I do come back to the ideas over and over though so maybe things change very slowly.

disengaged wrote:Hi, Just want to quickly point out an obvious error in your thinking at this moment. It seems like you think the pain body and depression belong to you. Well the good news is even if you want to own they, you cannot. There is simply no way. They come and go according to their own liking, I found.

Try something very simple. Next time when you start to think life is futile, say to yourself that thought doesn't belong to me and then observe what happens. In fact, any stressful thoughts is a sign that you start to create ownership to a problem, which by itself is a manifestation of the unmanifested, so it's neither right nor wrong, but why create problem when there is no problem. Really hope this would provide slight help to your situation.


I kind of understand what you are saying but dont fully grasp this concept yet. Sure the pain body and/or depression may not be "mine" but I am the person experiencing this particular set of emotions, moods, feelings etc. nobody else. I realise these things aren't who I am, they are just experiences however I have no clue who I am. I do identify with my body and mind like most people, I cannot seem to help it. While Im on earth experiencing life in a body with mind, I do not know how to realise "I" am anything else. If someone asked what are you I would say I am a body and mind experiencing various transient phenomena. I have read many books that say this is not who I am but I do not know anything else at this point and the books certainly don't make it any clearer.
I do try to dispute my negative thoughts but many times I seem to end up lost in a very dark place. I experience a sense of hopelessness and heaviness. Its like I fall into a hole and cannot see out.

EnterZenFromThere wrote:Hello xpansion, thank you for sharing your experience with us.

You aren't alone in feeling like this. Many are seeing the futility of the pursuit for happiness via purely material means. That you are aware of this is a wonderful, beautiful thing. Our feelings are a compass. When we feel bad about an experience it is our Higher Self advising us not to go that way. When we feel good about an experience, it is our Higher Self saying 'yes! That way!' Learning how this compass works will serve us all well in aligning with the Greater Purpose of our Higher Selves.

How comfortable do you feel with slowing down your thoughts? If you can be still and feel into your negativity you can release it. I'd probably be able to offer some better advice with a bit more information about your personal situation and experiences with spiritual-type techniques and what 'level' you feel you are at spiritually. There is always a way to turn negativity into positivity and turn depression into joy. I'm a living example, as I was suicidally depressed for a long time but these days that feels like another lifetime. I have found my Self and the Joy of it overflows me! To share this with others is important now. I offer myself to you with open arms!

Love, Peace, Joy,

Jack


But Im not sure if I can always trust how I feel. Sometimes feeling good has led me to make bad choices and visa versa. The mind can fool us very easily. Look at anorexics for example. They think they are fat but the reality is they are skeletons on the verge of death.
I do meditate every day and find it helpful however a lot of times I lose sight of why Im doing it because most of the time its like Im sitting there and my mind is racing, planning, worrying, thinking etc. It rarely stops. I continue to bring my mind back to the breathing but as I said above things dont seem to change much. Each day I sit and each day there is my mind no less erratic than the day before. Very occasionally I seem to reach a relaxed place in which I feel some momentary space and awareness but its very rare.

epiphany55 wrote:It's important to note that some forms of depression are more to do with chemical imbalance/deficiency and the physiology of the brain as opposed to environmentally/socially conditioned depression.

Pain body linked depression is conditioned purely by the social environment, as far as I understand.

But ultimately the physiologically induced depression can be looked at, by a conscious awareness, in the same way as socially induced depression. As disengaged said, the depression, whatever its source, cannot be said to belong to you. The only purpose of the physiological/social distinction, in my opinion, is to determine whether medication is needed. With socially induced depression, medication would still work, but it doesn't get to the root of the problem, which is the collective neuroses of the social group you are a part of and your reaction to it. With that, a simple change of perspective is required, not drugs.

ET, and many others, offer that new perspective.


This is why Im reluctant to go back on Anti depressants. Even though I feel better on a day to day basis, I feel like Im not dealing with the root cause because if I feel ok then its like I no longer need to.

I think I will wait a couple of weeks and perhaps start a journal so that I can look back and see how often I fall into the black hole. At the moment it feels like it happens about once every few weeks. Ultimately I want to be able to understand more about what ET and various others are saying. When I read the words they really resonate with me. I can see myself in a lot of what he says. I wish ET would give more examples though of how to practically apply the ideas because the power of now certainly doesnt do this. It would be really helpful. Maybe someone can explain to me exactly what it is I need to do when I start to feel myself sinking into a negative spiral.

My difficulties with people are one area that I really need some advise about. I see a pattern there. In my experience people can be very unaware, manipulative, selfish, jealous an all the other ego based behaviours. I tend to meet people and the ones I click with I hang out with. Eventually though they will say or do something I consider unthoughtful or nasty and I then withdraw from the friendship. I end up lonely with no friends but to me its less painful than having to deal with conflict and peoples bullshit.
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Re: Pain body or depression

Postby Phil2 » Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:19 am

xpansion wrote:
Phil2 wrote:
I would recommend to you a very interesting book I read recently (also see the discussion I started on this here):

The Mindful Way through Depression - Freeing Yourself from Chronic Unhappiness

BY MARK WILLIAMS; JOHN TEASDALE; ZINDEL SEGAL; JON KABAT-ZINN

Audio version also available on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raBlERzb_S4

Also many conferences from Jon Kabat-Zinn available on Youtube ...



Thank you. I already have that book and audio too and although I find the ideas helpful, like most of these kind of books when I first happen upon them I initially feel a sense of relief by what they say and then I tend to forget as I go about my daily life and so it feels as though things dont change that much. I do come back to the ideas over and over though so maybe things change very slowly.



Time is not important ... the key is to face your own painful emotions and thoughts and not repress or escape them with all kinds of 'distractions' ... in the end this process will free you ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)
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Re: Pain body or depression

Postby xpansion » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:31 pm

Phil2 wrote:
Time is not important ... the key is to face your own painful emotions and thoughts and not repress or escape them with all kinds of 'distractions' ... in the end this process will free you ...


In the end? According to ET I am already free aren't I? but apparently I can't see it.
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Re: Pain body or depression

Postby Onceler » Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:36 pm

It sounds as if you have understandable reasons to be depressed.....many people on the spiritual path feel deep sadness and some alienation, such as you describe. Do things need to be different than they are? In my own experience, I worked through much depression that was released as anger for the better part of a year before things subsided.....my point is that there is a clearing of deep emotions that is not unusual. The artful thing to discern, and you may want some help with this from a therapist who knows about the spiritual process, is whether your symptoms are cathartic or more like a closed loop of depression.

I believe I have been dysthymic all my life with visits into deeper depression and anxiety. Even now I feel a 'sub program' of depression (and currently grief) running almost continually, but it doesn't really impact my life the way it once did. There is sometimes exquisite sadness, that you describe well, stemming from longing and perhaps alienation from a society that that is insane and self destructive. As sensitive people we can't help but pick up on this negativity.....we need to discern what is our own stuff and what is picked up in the zeitgeist and how to build healthy habits of clearing and boundaries. These are personal for the individual, depending how sensitive one is. I exercise and do Qi Gong daily and watch my diet....processed food, excessive caffeine and alcohol can quickly put me I to a negative place.

What changed things for me was touching, in a non cognitive way, on the raw essence of 'me' and returning to this place whenever I thought to: the simple inquiry, 'how does it feel to be me?' Does the trick of exposure to our eternal, imperturbable self that never changes. Our fear begins to disappear and unwind its tendrils of influence thru our psychology. Thru this process, it's important to face our emotions as suggested above and hold them in our attention until they dissipate. This can be tricky, however, because I believe that there can be an over identification with painful phenomenon.....sometimes you have to shift attention away to more positive things, and knowing when to stay and when to shift is an artful process in and of itself (WebWanderer describes this process well). You will find some other forms of clearing in this process, exercise, yoga, etc., as your natural intelligence and intuition asserts itself as the main program.....there will also be longer stretches of attention and presence. This process is indivual and idiosyncratic, so be patient. I have also found that depression never totally disappears, but becomes sadness and longing and recedes further I to the background over time.

This is how things progressed for me and it would be presumptive to say this is the prescription for you, however, it seems that everyone's path follows a similar progression of clearing and catharsis, then returning back into the pain body, aided by whatever techniques get you through this process. Hang in there and keep questioning and trying things.
Be present, be pleasant.
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Re: Pain body or depression

Postby Phil2 » Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:31 pm

xpansion wrote:
Phil2 wrote:
Time is not important ... the key is to face your own painful emotions and thoughts and not repress or escape them with all kinds of 'distractions' ... in the end this process will free you ...


In the end? According to ET I am already free aren't I? but apparently I can't see it.


Yes, this is correct, you are already free, just you don't know it yet ... but a fact remains a fact even if you don't know it yet ... and in the end you will know it ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)
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Re: Pain body or depression

Postby disengaged » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:26 pm

Hi Just saw that my reply didn't really help right now. Hmm I really don't know how to explain it better. But what you are saying is exactly what I would say 2 or 3 years ago: "I'm body and mind experiencing on this planet earth". To the now-me that's obvious not my voice. I know it sounds so true and it just drives you crazy to think it's not true. I guess the point is I don't think because I don't like to create a self and suffer. lol.

You should be fine. What your hearts desires, the whole universe conspires to help you. A quote from a novel I read.
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Re: Pain body or depression

Postby disengaged » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:56 pm

I just remembered Buddha's teaching on the body. It's really helpful to show that the body doesn't belong to you. For example, think of your heart. Have you even had a say on how it works from the day you were born until the day you die? Never ever once in your life you have a clue how it works. You may know it conceptually, but you have no control over it. You cannot tell the heart to skip for 5 seconds. Tell it - I don't feel like beating, stop for 5 seconds. It just won't listen to you. Is there anyone able to do this among 7 billion people on earth? Now you may say oh I can make it beat faster by exercising :D . But again here you didn't have control over it. It beats faster because its nature is to beat faster when body needs more blood. Same as when you blow at a leaf, leaf moves away from you doesn't mean the leaf is now part of you.

This is the same as hair, nail, lung, stomach, muscles, bones, and all the parts of the body. The body meditation is often used by monks to overcome lusts, but I think it can take you all the way if it works for you. Btw I'm not using it because I like other ways, like inner body.

Once you work through the body, you will trust the voice in your head less. Eventually it would lead to other findings...
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Re: Pain body or depression

Postby Manyana » Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:55 am

xpansion wrote: My difficulties with people are one area that I really need some advise about. I see a pattern there. In my experience people can be very unaware, manipulative, selfish, jealous an all the other ego based behaviours. I tend to meet people and the ones I click with I hang out with. Eventually though they will say or do something I consider unthoughtful or nasty and I then withdraw from the friendship. I end up lonely with no friends but to me its less painful than having to deal with conflict and peoples bullshit.


Hi xpansion, yes I agree human interaction can be difficult, although as we awaken we start to see more our part in these interactions. It helps to remind ourselves a lot, that if we only see the ego in others, we strenghthen it in ourselves and that making ourselves right and others wrong also strengthens our own ego.
Regarding other peoples behaviour, I like this quote from PON p177:

It is true that only an unconscious person will try to use or manipulate others, but it is equally true that only an unconscious person can be used and manipulated. If you resist or fight unconscious behavior in others, you become unconscious yourself. But surrender doesn't mean that you allow yourself to be used by unconscious people. Not at all. It is perfectly possible to say "no" firmly and clearly to a person or to walk away from a situation and be in a state of complete nonresistance at the same time. When you say "no" to a person or situation, let it come not from reaction but from insight, from a clear realization of what is right or not right for you at that moment. Let it be a non-reactive "no", a high quality "no", a "no" that is free of all negativity and so creates no further suffering.
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Re: Pain body or depression

Postby Phil2 » Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:43 am

Phil2 wrote:
xpansion wrote:After reading about the pain body I'm wondering is it normal to feel this way, is this just my pain body or am I depressed and in need of medication?


I would recommend to you a very interesting book I read recently (also see the discussion I started on this here):

The Mindful Way through Depression - Freeing Yourself from Chronic Unhappiness

BY MARK WILLIAMS; JOHN TEASDALE; ZINDEL SEGAL; JON KABAT-ZINN

Audio version also available on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raBlERzb_S4

Also many conferences from Jon Kabat-Zinn available on Youtube ...

This book explains that instead of reacting to painful events with 'experiential avoidance', which is the habitual way for our defense system to avoid painful experiences, we can instead fully live those painful emotions by directly observing the effects in our body (tensions, rapid breath, aches, fast heart beat etc.).

So instead of constantly repressing painful emotions, better live those fully, and doing this we can get rid of them and heal our emotional wounds by experiencing our painful emotions and become more resilient to our compulsive self-destructive negative thoughts which cause our depression.


The authors speak of switching from habitual 'doing mode' (thought, analysis, problem solving etc.) to a 'being mode', which 'allows' the emotions to be fully experienced consciously and mindfully ...

I think this is totally in line with Eckhart Tolle's teachings who always recommends awareness of the body, and as he says to "inhabit our body" especially in stressful situations ... the body brings you back to the now ... to beingness ...


Xpansion, it seems we already spoke earlier about those issues of 'inner body' and 'heart feeling' ...

Did you read the book of Kabat-Zinn recommended above or listened to the audio version video of the book ?

??

... there is an old saying "Knowing and not acting is not knowing" ... can you live in consistency between what you think, what you say and what you do ?
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)
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