Vulnerability

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51sth
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Vulnerability

Post by 51sth » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:28 pm

It seems a bit strange but I've found out that when I am able to go to my vulnerability I seem to have no fear. It is like I become just pure compassion. It's totally different from what I have tought about it. People seem to respond more lovingly and what I have noticed it draws people around me to compassion too. The world responds in a loving way and it is like magic, it really is, no bs here. It is the most radical way that I know to see people start to behave around me differently.

My question is: Can one live from vulnerability, from compassion all the time? Are you living it now? I have a sense that this compassion is my true nature and therefore it could be the way to be. I'm still exploring though..

Andreas
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Re: Vulnerability

Post by Andreas » Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:16 pm

Wow, this is a very interesting topic.

I like this in particular because I already had the same experiences/feeling/thoughts occasionally but, so far, never permantly but only for short durations of time - so I guess I could also call it "still exploring" as you named it.

My guess is that it could actually work. However, I think it is very challenging because - at least for me - it requires totally being present at the same time and as soon as the ego kicks in, I start shutting out this vulnerability again, probably out of fear.

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Re: Vulnerability

Post by Phil2 » Sun Sep 07, 2014 10:59 am

Andreas wrote: My guess is that it could actually work. However, I think it is very challenging because - at least for me - it requires totally being present at the same time and as soon as the ego kicks in, I start shutting out this vulnerability again, probably out of fear.
Exactly, this state can only happen when being totally present (hence no ego operating) ... which also means no 'defense system' activated ie. total vulnerability ... and this is very hard to maintain because ego (and its 'defenses' and fears) comes back as soon as the challenge or threat becomes too high ...

And this reminds me the quote from Einstein:

"The most important question a person can ask is: Is the Universe a friendly place?"


When the universe is not seen as 'hostile', it becomes possible to drop our defenses and let go of ego ... there is a confidence in life as it is ... there is no more need to resist 'what is' or what comes to us ... and this non-resistance means vulnerability too ... we know there is nothing to be really hurt ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)

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Onceler
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Re: Vulnerability

Post by Onceler » Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:22 pm

Sounds interesting, but, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "go to my vulnerability". Can you give some examples?
Be present, be pleasant.

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Re: Vulnerability

Post by tod » Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:14 pm

Phil2 wrote: And this reminds me the quote from Einstein:

"The most important question a person can ask is: Is the Universe a friendly place?"


When the universe is not seen as 'hostile', it becomes possible to drop our defenses and let go of ego ... there is a confidence in life as it is ... there is no more need to resist 'what is' or what comes to us ... and this non-resistance means vulnerability too ... we know there is nothing to be really hurt ...
Hmm... not hostile because if I know or am confused by something that shows up it could only be a thought-construct (or the consequence of a thought-construct - such as fear or anxiety) for me to know it or be confused by it. ...And if I don't know, or am not confused, then nothing has shown up.

I'll stick with nothing, as then even when something shows up it is still nothing.

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Re: Vulnerability

Post by Sighclone » Mon Sep 08, 2014 12:49 am

Years ago I went to a seminar on "personal effectiveness." It was not specifically spiritually oriented, but had four themes: integrity, ownership, spontaneity and vulnerability. One message was "vulnerability is the courage to be whole." That's difficult for men, as a rule. (It takes more courage than most have.) Of course, there are those who will detect weakness in perceived vulnerability and exploit it, particularly in unhealthy competition or other environments when there are legitimate rivals who seek to dominate and defeat.

It does take courage to open your underbelly to attack. Unless, of course, your are embedded in nondual unity, and are unafraid of the 'consequences' of complete exposure/absorption in the present moment, whatever it might be bringing. In fact, of course, being "not vulnerable" or "invulnerable" means resisting, setting up defenses, etc.....

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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smiileyjen101
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Re: Vulnerability

Post by smiileyjen101 » Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:11 am

51sth said: Can one live from vulnerability, from compassion all the time? Are you living it now? I have a sense that this compassion is my true nature and therefore it could be the way to be. I'm still exploring though..
I'd suggest, yes, and no, to varying degrees. All based on awareness, capacity and willingness in any given moment.
The intrinsic balancing then needs to be compassion for self and other/s in harmony.

The yes because in awareness, capacity and willingness we can, 'be compassion', it's easy.
And no because in awareness, capacity and willingness we can also choose not to 'be compassion'.
Choosing not to is just as easy as choosing to. :wink:
Sighclone said: Years ago I went to a seminar on "personal effectiveness." It was not specifically spiritually oriented, but had four themes: integrity, ownership, spontaneity and vulnerability.
Wow, what an awesome sounding conference Andy. All the yummy words all at once :D

Choosing to be compassion does mean to choose to be all of those four traits in awareness, capacity & willingness - all of which are variable in experiences.
One message was "vulnerability is the courage to be whole."
It does take courage to open your underbelly to attack. Unless, of course, your are embedded in nondual unity, and are unafraid of the 'consequences' of complete exposure/absorption in the present moment, whatever it might be bringing.
That's one 'layer' of it that may be misunderstood. One can still care in the present moment, and have 'preferences' and even 'stand your ground' in some ways in the present moment (with integrity, respect for boundaries & automatic compassionate honesty), without necessarily being afraid of consequences, or limiting one's exposure to, or acceptance of 'what is'.

But if one is clear about the workings and the balancing of the other three themes - integrity - honesty being the highest form of love, ownership - what is and is not ours to choose and choosing that which we wish to experience not what another is allowed to experience, spontaneity (just is), then vulnerability is no sacrifice and needs no courage at all.

Funny isn't it - spontaneity might be less 'freely available' if we don't have the courage to be all we truly are in any given moment, more so even than vulnerability, which can only be experienced as a side effect of the other traits.

Or others being at a different level of awareness, capacity or willingness in understanding and implementing the traits mentioned may mean that their integrity, ownership, spontaneity and vulnerability interplays with our own, harmoniously or resistantly.

Why am I surprised at How they all inter-relate :D

It is actually possible to 'upset' people by being 'too compassionate' for their liking or comfort level.

Vulnerability can be as naturally powerful as, or as distorted as, any other 'trait'.

Sometimes I scare the crap out of people purely in my capacity and willingness to be genuinely vulnerable, so it's a 'thing' like any other.

Edit after seeing this being simultaneously written in another thread ---- :D
Sighclone said: Compassionate, spontaneous action may well not please everyone.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen

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Re: Vulnerability

Post by Phil2 » Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:16 am

tod wrote:
I'll stick with nothing, as then even when something shows up it is still nothing.
But then, in this total 'detachment', can there be compassion or love ? Isn't there a risk to become totally insensitive ?

??
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)

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Re: Vulnerability

Post by Sighclone » Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:43 pm

Norman Mailer wrote a book titled "Prisoner of Sex." I think in my discussion above, I fell victim to that, in that I suggested that being vulnerable requires courage. ... thanks, Smiiley for your broader view. I use that phrase a lot in conversations ("Vulnerability is the courage to be Whole") -- I just know so many men for whom both the vulnerability and the courage to be vulnerable are lacking...when I use that phrase, it seems to bring them up short: ("Huh, I'm full of courage !! And being vulnerable means exposed to attack!! Gotta defend against attack!! At all times!! -- Heck with "being Whole" -- I need to be Mr. Strong!! Mr. Invulnerable!!!!!) All of which leads into the larger discussion of men and feelings. I admit to having resistance to feelings, as opposed to my dear wife who is overcome by them frequently. You mention "balance" and I was out of balance until I read Gary Zukav's "Heart of the Soul" -- I discovered that I had been afraid of owning and exploring feelings, did so with help from my wife and others and discovered that they weren't so scary after all. This is recent, say two years ago. And vulnerability is all about opening up yourself to your own feelings as much if not more than it means exposing yourself to attack (or maybe even connection-?) with/from others.

Regardless, men don't do it well, as a rule. Indeed, several men I look back on in my life who stood out were those who were able to express their feelings (and not just rage, lots of feelings). I remember one father of two daughters my age who was driving his car down from a skiing area and pulled over. ("It is too slippery, I cannot drive, I am afraid.") My estimation of him increased immensely, as I took the wheel and very gently drove down the hill, that exercise taking all of my 28-year old driving skills.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Vulnerability

Post by tod » Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:18 pm

Phil2 wrote:
tod wrote:
I'll stick with nothing, as then even when something shows up it is still nothing.
But then, in this total 'detachment', can there be compassion or love ? Isn't there a risk to become totally insensitive ?

??
Hi Phil,

The "total 'detachment'" you appear to be referring to could only be in a realm of thought/concept. What remains in the absence of thought/concept?

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Re: Vulnerability

Post by smiileyjen101 » Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:56 am

Sighclone said: I remember one father of two daughters my age who was driving his car down from a skiing area and pulled over. ("It is too slippery, I cannot drive, I am afraid.") My estimation of him increased immensely, as I took the wheel and very gently drove down the hill, that exercise taking all of my 28-year old driving skills.
:D

This story, speaks to me of honesty, of integrity and willingness to be absolutely honest with oneself and with others. For me it highlights really well that Honesty is the highest form of love for self and others.

It's the sort of thing that I don't see requires the courage to be vulnerable, but it does require the courage to be completely honest with self and others.

Any 'attack' that could create a sense of vulnerability is unlikely to come from the situation itself, but from fear of others judging his response in that situation against their own perception perspective (& capacity & willingness). Then it would fall into the area that what someone thinks or says about another says more about them self than it does the other.

... gently... Sighclone, your estimation of him rising suggests you admire his honesty, and possibly it made you recognise how vulnerable you would feel admitting your capacity and willingness in a situation where you were totally unwilling to push the odds. There have been many who put themselves and others in physical danger rather than be honest about their true capacity and willingness. Like that wonderful quote in Top Gun about what makes one 'dangerous' for self and others .... "Your ego's writing cheques that your body can't cash."
His honesty also gave room for you to drive maybe more gently than you might otherwise have done if the atmosphere was of ego, rather than love/honesty.

I just love the tale and can see how it would inspire you :D

The wider musing about men expressing emotions - they seem to have no trouble expressing 'macho' emotions authentically :wink:

So maybe some erroneously believe that there really is any gender divide in experiencing and expressing emotions. Again honesty, not necessarily vulnerability is the highest energy in motion.
The truth indeed will set you free. (of illusions, erroneous beliefs etc)

Those who cry as happily as they laugh realise that there is no thing to fear in any of the emotions in their pure expression.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen

51sth
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Re: Vulnerability

Post by 51sth » Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:46 am

Onceler wrote:Sounds interesting, but, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "go to my vulnerability". Can you give some examples?
When I am going in to a situation which awakes fear in me I surrender to it and let what happens happens to me. I won't resist because of the fear, but instead I let myself be hurt if that is what it takes. This is what I mean by being vulnerable.

These situations in my life: New job, seeing someone which I don't know so well, going in to the supermarket ; ). I think these situations are personal, but the dynamics just might be universal. Fear -> surrendering to it instead of fighting/controlling it.

51sth
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Re: Vulnerability

Post by 51sth » Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:57 am

Phil2 wrote:
tod wrote:
I'll stick with nothing, as then even when something shows up it is still nothing.
But then, in this total 'detachment', can there be compassion or love ? Isn't there a risk to become totally insensitive ?

??
What this pops up into my mind is this:

Even when there ultimately isn't no good or bad and I believe this to be true, the human nature is not ultimately frightening, but loving. Resistance is what makes people "bad". This detachment then unreveals the true human nature.

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Re: Vulnerability

Post by Phil2 » Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:44 am

51sth wrote:
Phil2 wrote:
tod wrote:
I'll stick with nothing, as then even when something shows up it is still nothing.
But then, in this total 'detachment', can there be compassion or love ? Isn't there a risk to become totally insensitive ?

??
What this pops up into my mind is this:

Even when there ultimately isn't no good or bad and I believe this to be true, the human nature is not ultimately frightening, but loving. Resistance is what makes people "bad". This detachment then unreveals the true human nature.
Well, hopefully when 'detachment' itself does not become a subtle form of 'resistance' ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)

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Onceler
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Re: Vulnerability

Post by Onceler » Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:03 pm

51sth wrote:
Onceler wrote:Sounds interesting, but, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "go to my vulnerability". Can you give some examples?
When I am going in to a situation which awakes fear in me I surrender to it and let what happens happens to me. I won't resist because of the fear, but instead I let myself be hurt if that is what it takes. This is what I mean by being vulnerable.

These situations in my life: New job, seeing someone which I don't know so well, going in to the supermarket ; ). I think these situations are personal, but the dynamics just might be universal. Fear -> surrendering to it instead of fighting/controlling it.
That's really beautiful. I'm currently reading Nanci Danison's book Backward where she talks a lot about fear.....as one of the primary motivators in the human psyche/body. She talks about going beyond our comfort zone, just as you're doing, in order to expand our perspective.
Be present, be pleasant.

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