That little voice in your head...

This is the place to post whatever questions you have related to the teachings of Eckhart Tolle. The rest of us will do whatever we can to help you achieve a better understanding :)
User avatar
rachMiel
Posts: 2498
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: inner space
Contact:

Re: That little voice in your head...

Post by rachMiel » Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:50 am

dijmart wrote:
rachMiel wrote: But one big difference is that I don't see the necessity for awareness to be something universally present that our minds are embedded in, emerge out of. As much as I love the idea of The Force (Empire Strikes Back is my favorite movie of all time/space!), I think of it as a beautiful story that might or might not be an accurate pointer to the real nature of stuff.
Ok, so what would convince you otherwise? (not saying I could either way)
I doubt anything would convince me either way. And I'm comfortable with this un-knowing.
I have an easier time "believing in" an emergent theory of consciousness: that consciousness emerged, over eons, out of the initial Big Bang event, and that consciousness is created by the body-mind of the individual organism ... in connection with other organisms around it.
Yes, this is easy to believe, because this is what science points to, correct?
Scientists have different theories on the nature of consciousness, I wouldn't say there is any solid consensus.

An emergent model of consciousness just makes more intuitive sense to me. It resonates more than a universal awareness model. And it is not devoid of "spirituality." It allows for everything to be alive and connected. In an emergent model, the connection flows from the individual to the global; in a universal awareness model, it flows from the global to the individual.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

dijmart
Posts: 2116
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:35 pm

Re: That little voice in your head...

Post by dijmart » Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:43 am

rachMiel wrote: I doubt anything would convince me either way. And I'm comfortable with this un-knowing.
Gotcha :wink:
An emergent model of consciousness just makes more intuitive sense to me. It resonates more than a universal awareness model. And it is not devoid of "spirituality." It allows for everything to be alive and connected. In an emergent model, the connection flows from the individual to the global; in a universal awareness model, it flows from the global to the individual.
I don't understand this emergent model?
Take what you like and leave the rest.

User avatar
rachMiel
Posts: 2498
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: inner space
Contact:

Re: That little voice in your head...

Post by rachMiel » Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:12 pm

dijmart wrote:
An emergent model of consciousness just makes more intuitive sense to me. It resonates more than a universal awareness model. And it is not devoid of "spirituality." It allows for everything to be alive and connected. In an emergent model, the connection flows from the individual to the global; in a universal awareness model, it flows from the global to the individual.
I don't understand this emergent model?
Universal Consciousness as timeless ground of being and particular body-mind as ephemeral manifestation of UC is, as I see it, a top-down view. UC, the overarching principle, gives way to the particular.

The emergent model of consciousness is bottom-up. The particular gives way to the universal. Big Bang yields gobs of particular objects (quarks, etc.), each with a miniscule dab of awareness. These objects start mating and spawning object-complexes that have a tad more awareness. On and on, up and up, until, voilà: full-on mind emerges. And, somehow, along the way ... connection between all units of awareness (from cells to stars) also emerges.

See: I can do woo-woo! ;-)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

dijmart
Posts: 2116
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:35 pm

Re: That little voice in your head...

Post by dijmart » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:20 pm

rachMiel wrote:
dijmart wrote: I don't understand this emergent model?
The emergent model of consciousness is bottom-up. The particular gives way to the universal. Big Bang yields gobs of particular objects (quarks, etc.), each with a miniscule dab of awareness. These objects start mating and spawning object-complexes that have a tad more awareness. On and on, up and up, until, voilà: full-on mind emerges. And, somehow, along the way ... connection between all units of awareness (from cells to stars) also emerges.
So, with this model, my question would be where did the big bang come from? Another words, what was present prior to the big bang, to make the big bang occur? And if it's anything phenomenal I would ask the same question.
See: I can do woo-woo! ;-)
Yes, you can :wink:
Take what you like and leave the rest.

User avatar
rachMiel
Posts: 2498
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: inner space
Contact:

Re: That little voice in your head...

Post by rachMiel » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:25 pm

dijmart wrote:So, with this model, my question would be where did the big bang come from?
WAY above my pay grade. Heck, I don't even know if there *was* a Big Bang. All I really know is ... closing my eyes and relaxing ... ... ... this.

Sharing stories around the campfire ... that's how I see all discussions that make assertions about ultimate truths. Thing is: I LOVE stories. :lol:
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

dijmart
Posts: 2116
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:35 pm

Re: That little voice in your head...

Post by dijmart » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:00 pm

rachMiel wrote:
dijmart wrote:So, with this model, my question would be where did the big bang come from?
WAY above my pay grade. Heck, I don't even know if there *was* a Big Bang. All I really know is ... closing my eyes and relaxing ... ... ... this.
I asked the question like I did, because the emergent theory seems to "hinge" on this very question. If like you said, "The Big Bang yields gobs of particular objects (quarks, etc.), each with a miniscule dab of awareness". Because if there was a big bang, then like I said where did it come from? and if there wasn't a big bang, then why would consciousness/awareness just emerge where it had not been originally, what caused it? But, I get we don't really know if there was a big bang (however, it's highly probable to me) and I was just giving food for thought really...
Take what you like and leave the rest.

User avatar
rachMiel
Posts: 2498
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: inner space
Contact:

Re: That little voice in your head...

Post by rachMiel » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:12 pm

dijmart wrote:
rachMiel wrote:
dijmart wrote:So, with this model, my question would be where did the big bang come from?
WAY above my pay grade. Heck, I don't even know if there *was* a Big Bang. All I really know is ... closing my eyes and relaxing ... ... ... this.
I asked the question like I did, because the emergent theory seems to "hinge" on this very question. If like you said, "The Big Bang yields gobs of particular objects (quarks, etc.), each with a miniscule dab of awareness". Because if there was a big bang, then like I said where did it come from? and if there wasn't a big bang, then why would consciousness/awareness just emerge where it had not been originally, what caused it? But, I get we don't really know if there was a big bang (however, it's highly probable to me) and I was just giving food for thought really...
Like I said: You got me. I'm unable to offer anything but a wildly speculative answer (which I'll resist doing!). Emergent consciousness makes huge gut sense to me, just seems right. It's way more feeling than logic. (This might be similar to how it works for people who believe in Universal Consciousness; it just feels right to them.)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

User avatar
Clouded
Posts: 492
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:06 am
Location: Inside Clouded's body

Re: That little voice in your head...

Post by Clouded » Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:04 pm

What about your 'feng shui' project Clouded ? Did you clean your room finally ?

??

Maybe you should consider to 'walk the talk' now ?
It didn't help that much. Plus, there's only so much that I can do because my parents don't want to rearrange the furniture in other rooms/renovate the house (our house is a period 7 house because it was built before 2004 and that is bad luck unless we do something to counter it.) I'm seriously considering taking sedatives again (and I do have prescriptions) because I don't want to deal with strong emotions anymore, I feel like I experience unhealthy levels of anxiety and sadness and it's exhausting to always dramatize everything, I need a little boost of numbness. I don't even experience happiness very often so it's not like I'm worried that I will lose happiness, better have no emotions at all than always being stuck dealing with anxiety and sadness.

Yesterday, I was driving at night (it was 7pm but it was very dark outside) and I had to integrate the car on a highway and I freaked out because the other cars were moving really fast and there were so many of them, I couldn't see well and this was one of the first occasions that I drove at night and I experienced a full blown anxiety attack right there because I feared that I will cause an accident if I got on the highway. I was completely disoriented and I pulled over somewhere that was prohibited to park and I started crying because I was so afraid and I can't do anything in a calm manner, I can't concentrate, everything is too much of a challenge for me and every little thought can send me into a frenzy. It's not like I have levels of anxiety that start from 1 (mild discomfort) to 5 (panic attack), if I feel something, it starts at 4 and quickly escalates to 5. It's like a circus of emotions and I rarely feel that I am in a natural state of well-being, I think that I only experience wellness first thing when I wake up in the morning after a long rest and then I get overstimulated.
"If you want to know what your were like in the past, look at your body today. If you want to know what your body will be like in the future, look at your thoughts today." -Deepak

Phil2
Posts: 1379
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: That little voice in your head...

Post by Phil2 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:31 pm

Clouded wrote:
What about your 'feng shui' project Clouded ? Did you clean your room finally ?

??

Maybe you should consider to 'walk the talk' now ?
It didn't help that much. Plus, there's only so much that I can do because my parents don't want to rearrange the furniture in other rooms/renovate the house (our house is a period 7 house because it was built before 2004 and that is bad luck unless we do something to counter it.)
Hold on Clouded, results won't come all at once so easily ... putting order in things around you will help you to put order in yourself ... it really works, I can tell you ...

Remember Clouded always do the best you can (but nobody is required to do the impossible :) ) ... when you do the best, you will feel better, at least you have done what you had to ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)

User avatar
Onceler
Posts: 2257
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:35 am
Location: My house

Re: That little voice in your head...

Post by Onceler » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:13 pm

Have you tried exercise? I would walk as much as I could. Exercise is probably the best thing you can do for your brain and emotions. Do a google search on exercise and the NY Times and you will come up with a ton of articles on research on latest effects of exercise on the brain.
Be present, be pleasant.

dijmart
Posts: 2116
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:35 pm

Re: That little voice in your head...

Post by dijmart » Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:51 pm

rachMiel wrote: Like I said: You got me. I'm unable to offer anything but a wildly speculative answer (which I'll resist doing!).
Nah, we were just looking, together. :wink:
Take what you like and leave the rest.

User avatar
rachMiel
Posts: 2498
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: inner space
Contact:

Re: That little voice in your head...

Post by rachMiel » Fri Nov 07, 2014 10:58 pm

dijmart wrote:
rachMiel wrote: Like I said: You got me. I'm unable to offer anything but a wildly speculative answer (which I'll resist doing!).
Nah, we were just looking, together. :wink:
Groovey. :P
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

User avatar
smiileyjen101
Posts: 3796
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:44 am

Re: That little voice in your head...

Post by smiileyjen101 » Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:50 pm

Clouded said: Yesterday, I was driving at night (it was 7pm but it was very dark outside) and I had to integrate the car on a highway and I freaked out because the other cars were moving really fast and there were so many of them, I couldn't see well and this was one of the first occasions that I drove at night and I experienced a full blown anxiety attack right there because I feared that I will cause an accident if I got on the highway. I was completely disoriented and I pulled over somewhere that was prohibited to park and I started crying because I was so afraid
That sounds very scary for a person not used to driving at night, Clouded.

... I would have been scared too - I'm sure the first time I integrated onto a highway - even in daylight - I would have been feeling the scary tension of it.

If we break it down to what is real - and what is imagined, it becomes more manageable. I'm not saying it goes away, or goes anywhere, it just becomes more manageable.

eg: Absolutely, unless we have no sense of personal responsibility, we are going to be nervous at times while in supposed 'control' of a vehicle that goes fast, mixes with other vehicles going fast and over which at the very base of our logic we know we only have very limited control in the environment.

So the more we up the risk factors, the more the anxiety levels rise.

I would be more concerned about those who feel no such concern / anxiety, even over those who feel that their concern is overwhelming and have the common sense to pull off the road (even into a no parking area) when they are unsure if their capacity can meet the reality safely.

Your description is full of your actual awareness of the environment and an honest assessment of your capacity to drive within that environment with the actual risk factors that were in evidence (volume of traffic flow, speed of traffic flow, lack of clear visibility, inexperience in driving in those conditions). That's actually a good thing! Your meltdown was a blessing!! It allowed you to stop and experience the full comprehension of what you were doing.

Overconfidence or blind ignorance to one's actual capacity or the perception of actual risk factors, is one of the biggest killers on our roads, and in workplace incidents.
It's not like I have levels of anxiety that start from 1 (mild discomfort) to 5 (panic attack), if I feel something, it starts at 4 and quickly escalates to 5.
- if ^ is 'always true', how then do you know that mild discomfort (1) and the stages 2 & 3 of discomfort exist?

I've noticed that those who have a higher than average sense of personal responsibility and awareness, which comes from a very real higher than average capacity, tend to have more 'serious' conflicts of emotions & melt downs when things are felt to be outside of their very considerable capacity.

This might be out of synch with how they believe they 'should be', or how things 'should be', or how capable they 'should be', and because so much is actually within their ability to respond to, your description of the melt down is very apt. It appears as if everything is hunky dory and then CRASH as if there has been no progressive discomfort.

Being out of one's depth is scary, and where others with less capacity get more used to keenly going through those stages of discomfort and disappointment, the more capable you are generally, the less you have to learn to deal with the discomfort because stuff usually 'works out' as you're pushing on.

Let me ask - and please be honest (because thus far you stopped your story before its actual ending/resolution) what happened after the crying?

Did you eventually come to terms with the reality and apply your capacity to the best of your ability?
Did you abdicate driving completely or did you simply learn what it feels like to be scared while in 'control' of a motor vehicle when it feels beyond your capacity?

You've stopped your 'story' in your mind and here on the page at the 'cliff-hanger' the point that has no resolution yet. If you focus on that point and hold your emotions at that level of course you will not be able to relax. Your system will be pumping out all sorts of conflicting hormones in response to your thinking.

Your story had an 'ending' - and that 'ending' is likely not that you are incapable of following it through to the conclusion, wherein you can relax, wherein you are not in any danger, wherein continued reaction and/or recrimination are not necessary.

The ... and eventually it ended well, allows one to relax after tension, to breathe out when we've held our breath in surprise or disappointment.

Your fears are not abnormal.

Your response to a sudden sense of threat are not abnormal.

Your awareness of the distance between your expectations and your reality, are not abnormal. (in both capacity and willingness)

If you haven't already read it, there is a wonderful book that speaks to the realities of fears Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway by Susan Jeffers http://www.susanjeffers.com/home/detail ... catID=2234

.. it is a wonderful insight from someone who has been honest enough to really look at what frightens us, and provide strategies for unpacking the fears.

It's not that others are not or have not been afraid of the same things, it's that they've learned - either naturally or with some conscious work, to overcome their fears and respond in ways that are not felt as extreme.

Stop being so hard on yourself. Being authentically human is to be fragile at times, and that's okay too. If you think that your experience is not normal, you'd be believing the hype, instead of the reality of our mortality and our capacity to make mistakes. This awareness in you is a good thing!!

I see you being very authentic in a very pretentious world.

The real world just is what it is, and that's okay too.

If it's not 'okay', it's not over, there is still more to integrate / reconcile.
Last edited by smiileyjen101 on Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen

User avatar
Onceler
Posts: 2257
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:35 am
Location: My house

Re: That little voice in your head...

Post by Onceler » Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:09 am

Smiley, you accidentally addressed your quote to Started. It was Clouded that wrote the piece you quoted about driving at night.
Be present, be pleasant.

User avatar
smiileyjen101
Posts: 3796
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:44 am

Re: That little voice in your head...

Post by smiileyjen101 » Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:57 am

Thanks Onceler - wondering now if there's anything of interest to Started in there :lol:
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen

Post Reply