That little voice in your head...

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Re: That little voice in your head...

Postby dijmart » Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:34 am

Clouded wrote:
Phil2 wrote:
Clouded wrote:Well I didn't catch that. It would have helped me understand you better if you wrote that I behaved like that "in the moment" or "right now" instead of "here".


Yes maybe you are too quick to answer and do not pay enough attention ?

:lol:

Well I'm not graded here so I'm not concerned and terrified about not paying enough attention. And hasn't something like that ever occurred to you? Or did you always get a clear understanding of what another person is trying to say on the internet? Laugh all you want.


I like your answer Clouded :wink: I have a feeling Phil is playing with you, so I wouldn't pay him much mind.
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Re: That little voice in your head...

Postby Clouded » Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:42 am

Disbelieving thoughts is not that easy! At least in my experience. The judge in me is very persuading and I rely a lot on experiences to prove it wrong/right. Plus if I disbelieved all of my thoughts then I would be a true vegetable without any incentive in life. This post summarizes how I feel about positive affirmations: http://dramyjohnson.com/2011/12/what-to-do-when-positive-affirmations-feel-negative/
"If you want to know what your were like in the past, look at your body today. If you want to know what your body will be like in the future, look at your thoughts today." -Deepak
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Re: That little voice in your head...

Postby Phil2 » Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:27 am

dijmart wrote:I have a feeling Phil is playing with you, so I wouldn't pay him much mind.


Di,

1) First of all you make an assumption ... (as usual)

2) Second, based on this erroneous assumption you recommend someone to take some action or attitude ...

3) Third your recommendation is to escape a challenge instead of facing it ... which cannot lead to any positive evolution ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
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Re: That little voice in your head...

Postby Onceler » Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:05 pm

Clouded wrote:Disbelieving thoughts is not that easy! At least in my experience. The judge in me is very persuading and I rely a lot on experiences to prove it wrong/right. Plus if I disbelieved all of my thoughts then I would be a true vegetable without any incentive in life. This post summarizes how I feel about positive affirmations: http://dramyjohnson.com/2011/12/what-to-do-when-positive-affirmations-feel-negative/


Yeah, know what you mean. I'm not talking about mindless positivity. The first rule is always stick to the truth.....evaluate the opposite for truth. If it's not true, or truer than the negative thought, discard it. In the example I gave, it's true, my knee is healing......slowly but surely, it's getting better, just not at the rate I wish it was. This thought is less painful than my knee will never heal and I'll never be able to run again.

In your case, and this is just based on what you've written (I don't pretend to know you) I might change, 'I'll live with my parents and be dependent on them forever' to 'I will be open to new experiences and will gradually shift my focus away from my parents house' or something of that sort which is true.

This style has its roots more in cognitive theory than affirmations, which always sounded more like magical thinking to me. One of the core cognitive theory thoughts is 'I can stand 'awful' long enough to make a good plan.' You might want to check out a good cognitive therapist if you are interested in this, however the fundamental problem has to be addressed before you can change your thinking.....the problem of fear. The only way to address this that I know of is to experience your essential unchanging nature and realize you can't be harmed or helped by anything.
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Re: That little voice in your head...

Postby Phil2 » Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:05 pm

Onceler wrote:
Clouded wrote:Disbelieving thoughts is not that easy! At least in my experience. The judge in me is very persuading and I rely a lot on experiences to prove it wrong/right. Plus if I disbelieved all of my thoughts then I would be a true vegetable without any incentive in life. This post summarizes how I feel about positive affirmations: http://dramyjohnson.com/2011/12/what-to-do-when-positive-affirmations-feel-negative/


Yeah, know what you mean. I'm not talking about mindless positivity. The first rule is always stick to the truth.....evaluate the opposite for truth. If it's not true, or truer than the negative thought, discard it. In the example I gave, it's true, my knee is healing......slowly but surely, it's getting better, just not at the rate I wish it was. This thought is less painful than my knee will never heal and I'll never be able to run again.

In your case, and this is just based on what you've written (I don't pretend to know you) I might change, 'I'll live with my parents and be dependent on them forever' to 'I will be open to new experiences and will gradually shift my focus away from my parents house' or something of that sort which is true.



Yes, quite similar to the method called 'The Work' as proposed by Byron Katie (also recommended by Eckhart) ie. questioning our own beliefs by the Four Questions:

Step 1 Is it true? (Yes or no. If no, move to 3.)

Step 2 Can you absolutely know that it's true? (Yes or no.)

Step 3 How do you react, what happens, when you believe that thought?

Step 4 Who would you be without the thought?

Turn the thought around. Then find at least three specific, genuine examples of how each turnaround is true for you in this situation.

http://www.thework.com/thework-4questions.php

This is indeed similar to 'cognitive therapy' ... it allows us to take some distance with our most negative thoughts and conflictual perspectives ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
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Re: That little voice in your head...

Postby dijmart » Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:46 pm

Onceler wrote: One of the core cognitive theory thoughts is 'I can stand 'awful' long enough to make a good plan.'


I like it! :)
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Re: That little voice in your head...

Postby Clouded » Sat Nov 22, 2014 6:09 am

I do react intensely to fear, I have to say that 70% of the time, I choose to avoid facing my fears, and when I do try to face them, sometimes it goes better than expected and sometimes my mind goes completely blank and I become an emotional mess, which only reinforces me to avoid re-experiencing freezing and facing my fears. I sabotage opportunities because of fear; like when I decided to drop out of school because I couldn't deal with worrying about my grades anymore (I experienced anxiety almost daily because I was quizzed in almost all of my classes and I had a time limit and my mind was constantly worrying about not being ready for my exams and I never was, I'd spent so many nights trying to go to sleep but couldn't because I was nervous of not being able to get a good night's sleep and sometimes I would spend 2 whole days without getting any sleep; it was just an awful experience and I was so glad that I ended it so my mind could finally rest and sleep peacefully without worrying about not being able to graduate because my GPA was a disaster.) The problem is, even when I am at home and don't have as many reasons to be anxious, I still worry about the distant future. I wish that fear didn't exist in my system because it is holding me back from evolving.
Last edited by Clouded on Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: That little voice in your head...

Postby Clouded » Sun Nov 23, 2014 12:11 am

I like that quote.
"If you want to know what your were like in the past, look at your body today. If you want to know what your body will be like in the future, look at your thoughts today." -Deepak
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Clouded's Diary

Postby Clouded » Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:31 am

I think that the toughest challenge that I will ever try to complete in this lifetime is believing that I am the silent observer of my thoughts; it just goes against everything I believe about myself and the world. I accept it in theory (if you were to tell me that I am not who I think I am 5 years ago, I would think that you were totally insane), but I can't do it in practice because I am so chained up to my conditioning and the emotions that arise from such conditioning. I try my best to break free from the prison of my mind, but I am afraid of what might happen when I do. Is it strange that I am afraid to lose my thoughts however self-destructive they may be? Can you not experience life through thoughts? Recently, I had bouts where I felt like I am an impostor, like this body is alien to me, that I am not this thing. Is that healthy? I still fear that I might be going crazy.
"If you want to know what your were like in the past, look at your body today. If you want to know what your body will be like in the future, look at your thoughts today." -Deepak
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Re: Clouded's Diary

Postby Phil2 » Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:38 am

Clouded wrote: Recently, I had bouts where I felt like I am an impostor, like this body is alien to me, that I am not this thing. Is that healthy? I still fear that I might be going crazy.


When you stick to facts there can be no 'craziness' ... craziness/insanity only happens when you believe in the assumptions created by thought, including identification to forms ...
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Re: That little voice in your head...

Postby kafi » Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:15 pm

Clouded wrote: I think that the toughest challenge that I will ever try to complete in this lifetime is believing that I am the silent observer of my thoughts; it just goes against everything I believe about myself and the world. I accept it in theory (if you were to tell me that I am not who I think I am 5 years ago, I would think that you were totally insane), but I can't do it in practice because I am so chained up to my conditioning and the emotions that arise from such conditioning. I try my best to break free from the prison of my mind, but I am afraid of what might happen when I do. Is it strange that I am afraid to lose my thoughts however self-destructive they may be? Can you not experience life through thoughts? Recently, I had bouts where I felt like I am an impostor, like this body is alien to me, that I am not this thing. Is that healthy? I still fear that I might be going crazy.

Clouded,
I also had a period where I felt symptoms of depersonalization/derealization disorder ( DP/DR) . The zen people call it ‘pit of the void’, I think. There is a story by Suzanne Segal about it.
That can happen . It is not insane. It is remembering who we are. But it is the ego’s view on this remembering. And the ego doesn’t like it.

Different people find different remedies for this situation.
For me it was having to take care of others. Having to invite a bunch of friends for brunch. Having to take care of a sick budgie. That pushed me back into the body.
For Hans Burgschmidt it was physical exercise which brought him back http://www.psychologytomorrowmagazine.c ... evil-twin/
For Suzanne Segal, it was more about accepting it as the new normal .

You wrote about believing that you are the observer. I would say , don’t start with believing that you are the observer. Just do it. Just observer. And then start with the choice for inner peace . And observe what happens in your environment. That gave me the faith that this is the correct direction. If in inner peace, I found that wishes were fulfilled magically. That encouraged me to vote for inner peace more consistently.
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Re: That little voice in your head...

Postby Clouded » Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:53 am

Yeah, I think that becoming a silent observer does happen naturally; you don't need to force yourself to believe that you are not your thoughts. You know, there are times when I am aware that I feel really at ease, that my mind feels light as a feather, and I notice that there are no thoughts in my conscience that are bothering me at the moment (my old worries seem irrelevant), that are asking to be contemplated back and forth and be solved. I cherish the moments when I decide to stop caring about what I think about myself; when I notice that, I am relieved that there is a way out of my misery and figuratively pat myself on the shoulder. I wonder why I choose to make myself suffer when I know that I can stop my suffering at any moment.

Stupid ego with it's defense mechanisms........
"If you want to know what your were like in the past, look at your body today. If you want to know what your body will be like in the future, look at your thoughts today." -Deepak
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Re: That little voice in your head...

Postby Phil2 » Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:45 am

Clouded wrote: I wonder why I choose to make myself suffer when I know that I can stop my suffering at any moment.

Stupid ego with it's defense mechanisms........


Can you stop thinking ? From what you said earlier thought seems to happen compulsively ?

??
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Re: That little voice in your head...

Postby Clouded » Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:39 am

Phil2 wrote:
Clouded wrote: I wonder why I choose to make myself suffer when I know that I can stop my suffering at any moment.

Stupid ego with it's defense mechanisms........


Can you stop thinking ? From what you said earlier thought seems to happen compulsively ?

??
I can consciously decide to stop thinking but then I get bored and forget that my goal was to stop thinking. I'm like a little kid who can't stay still during time-out.
"If you want to know what your were like in the past, look at your body today. If you want to know what your body will be like in the future, look at your thoughts today." -Deepak
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Re: That little voice in your head...

Postby Phil2 » Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:07 am

Clouded wrote: I'm like a little kid who can't stay still during time-out.


Right, therefore you have to grow up ... but preferably without losing the innocence of children ...

(btw innocence - from Latin nocere = to harm, to hurt - means literally unability to hurt)
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