mind aware of mind?

[xpansion]

When I meditate or even just when I become aware of my thoughts during the day etc how can I tell that it is so called "timeless awareness" or "consciousness being conscious of itself" as ET puts it? Couldn't it simply be thought being aware of thought? Or mind of mind? I dont want to be deluding myself into thinking I'm having some kind of awakened experience when it is nothing of the sort. How can you tell the difference?

[kafi]

Hi,
the 180 inward look has no content at all. No thought as a content.
I can only tell you what it felt like for me.
At first, this was simply black and very peaceful. Because there is nothing to imagine, nothing to see, no thought to watch .
Thoughts may continue to occur, but they aren't watched. The attention is not on them but 180 degrees inward.
If I were to choose a metaphor for this blackness, it was like a dark lake, with a very quiet surface.

Then , when I rested with this 'blackness' (which is just due to there being no content of awareness), then a subtle joy emerged.
Again , if I were to use a metaphor, it felt like a small fountain. A spring of water. Always welling up. Always moving. Always pouring forth.
Regardless of whether the sky is blue and my children don't fight. Unconditional joy.

This is it. This is the kingdom of heaven inside. This is the pearl beyond price . Afterwards my world was not the same anymore.

[Onceler]

Nice description, Kafi. The inward looking experience for me is almost identical to what you describe. It's the place where everything comes from, radiating outward, but it's nothingness, essence, fundamentally you. It's almost insignificant and could easily be missed if one didn't know its primary importance. I generally rest my attention there for only a few seconds.

[xpansion]

But you're not really answering the question, you are just giving a mystical sounding description of an experience you had. I have no idea what you are talking about when you say 180 inward etc.
As I said my when I become aware of thought how do I know this is not just mind being aware or mind? I need some basic simple guidance but all I ever seem to get is mystical mumbo jumbo. What I want to know is when I become aware of my thoughts , who or what is becoming aware? Is it mind? It feels like it. I don't have any senses of this so called awareness , presence etc. Just thoughts then more thoughts saying oh look I'm thinking. I have been meditating for a long time, when or how will I find this supposed true essence?

[rachMiel]

That's the trouble with grand talk of awakening and Awareness ... it makes promises that can't be kept.

Pure awareness can never be found. Look for it, it's gone. But it is what you are.

So relax. Do stuff that makes you happy. Give up the search; you can always go back to it.

[Phil2]

When I meditate or even just when I become aware of my thoughts during the day etc how can I tell that it is so called "timeless awareness" or "consciousness being conscious of itself" as ET puts it? Couldn't it simply be thought being aware of thought?

No , because there is no awareness in thought ... thought is just a 'voice in your head', ie. a material (hence measurable) process ... what is aware of thought IS awareness (not thought) ... and thought, as all other forms, take place in the space of awareness ... which is itself 'formless' ... and timeless ...

[Phil2]

What I want to know is when I become aware of my thoughts , who or what is becoming aware? Is it mind? It feels like it.

When you become aware of your thoughts, this IS awareness, what else than awareness could be aware ?

??

When you notice your own inattention, this IS attention ... ie. awareness ... presence ...

Compulsive thought just creates inattention (when the teacher speaks and instead of listening, you think to what you will do this weekend, you are being inattentive, 'absent', not 'present') ... and when you become aware of being inattentive, this IS attention ... presence ...

No 'mystical' concepts needed here ... and no scoop either ...

[Manyana]

I understand your frustration xpansion, I think initially it can feel like mind looking at mind because that is how we are used to operating. There is a lot of groundwork that is then done through practicing presence, which can seem a little boring for a while. But you know it is working once the presence starts to pop up on it's own, then it has a different quality, like a kind of 'alive' feeling - like you are seeing out of new eyes.

[EnterZenFromThere]

I'd say - relax.

No matter what you do or do not do - you are Pure Being, Being Itself. Everything that you are, every aspect of your experience, is Pure Consciousness being Aware of Itself. This is true regardless of whether or not you are aware of it. Pure Being as a Human that is unaware of Pure Being is always Pure Being. Pure Being as a Human that IS aware of Pure Being is always Pure Being. So, no matter what your perspective is, you are ALREADY it.

The reason it may not feel like it is because of definition. The more we define our experience, the more we limit it by those definitions. The less we define it, the more we free ourselves to be the True Being that we are - which is Unconditional Love and Unlimited Freedom.

Rather than trying to conceptualise what 'consciousness' is and get there, just relax.

If thoughts arise, acknowledge them and invite them into your experience. Your True Nature is inviting and embracing and loving. To become that, Be as it! Be inviting and embracing of your experiences! Naturally, this will cause that which is unlike your True Self to unwind and dissolve into the Oceanic Love that your Truly Are.

Gently allow yourself to let go of definitions of awakening. Rather than trying to understand the process of it, just allow yourself to Be. Whatever your experience is in the moment - Be that. Accept that. Relax into that. Dissolve into that.

Love!!!

Jack

[rachMiel]

That which sees stuff in the moment it is happening is awareness.

That which interprets or anticipates stuff after/before the fact is thought.

So thought can't see thought, it can only see the "afterimage" that thought leaves in memory.

Can awareness see awareness? Hmm ... tricky. I'll have to investigate that one.

[EnterZenFromThere]

Thoughts are awareness too! Pure Being is EVERYTHING including every sensation, thought and feeling! Excluding thoughts as something outside of your True Being is the same motivation that separates you from the Source you ARE!!! Excluding ANYTHING from your experience is the same movement that creates the perception of separation - which is the REAL lived experience of separation - which is living in Fear and Doubt and Limitation. INCLUSION of EVERY aspect of your experience - every sensation, thought and feeling is Being as you ARE! Being is Love and Love is Inclusion! If you do not define and limit yourself you naturally ARE the all inclusiveness of Love - so will effortlessly embrace and expand your human experience into the True Love that you ARE!!!

Love!!!

Jack

[rachMiel]

Everything is everything.

QED

So let's all stop worrying and start enjoying!

Note to self: This means you.

[Phil2]

Can awareness see awareness? Hmm ... tricky. I'll have to investigate that one.

Of course Pab, awareness can be aware of itself ... but not 'know' itself ... because there would be a 'knower' separate from the 'known', hence a duality ... this is the problem with knowledge, it implies a 'knower' and also time, because knowledge is memory ...

This is also why 'Know yourself' is kind of Mission Impossible V ...

[EnterZenFromThere]

What is Knowing doesn't need a Knower? What if it just IS?

[rachMiel]

Can awareness see awareness? Hmm ... tricky. I'll have to investigate that one.

Of course Pab, awareness can be aware of itself ...

Awareness awares objects: sensations, thoughts, images, feelings. But awareness is not an object. So how could it aware itself?

(Yep, I'm using aware as a verb. )