The power of attention.

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The power of attention.

Postby sumbrero23 » Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:36 pm

Hi. Long time I don't come here to write.

I have experienced some strange things. When my mind is absolutely clear I can see what others think by deeply observation.
This is not some kind of ''gift''. I think can be equally good or bad. Because we generally lie. Our ego's don't want to be unveiled.
So I'm beginning to see this and I think. This might be socially dangerous. Sometimes I can't stop it and I see others getting uncomfortable by my presence.

Do you ever had any trouble while practicing presence?
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Re: The power of attention.

Postby lmp » Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:56 pm

Hi,

in what manner do you see their thoughts? Do they appear to you as your thoughts appear to you or do your thoughts appear on behalf of them. Tell me a little bit about it.

I haven't had any trouble really worth describing.
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Re: The power of attention.

Postby sumbrero23 » Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:04 pm

lmp wrote:Hi,

in what manner do you see their thoughts? Do they appear to you as your thoughts appear to you or do your thoughts appear on behalf of them. Tell me a little bit about it.

I haven't had any trouble really worth describing.


Hi.
It appear to be in my mind as my own thoughts. As conclusions of information processing (words and body movements)
Sometimes my attention is so strong that others can sense me watching them. For example people having a conversation near me in which I'm not involved.
They also try to fool me but it's worthless. It's like (sometimes) I can totally detect when others are lying or pretending something they are not.
I can get inside others mind by deeply observing and directing all my attention to them. Just that simple.
I'm doing my best to explain.
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Re: The power of attention.

Postby lmp » Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:40 pm

I'm not sure what to say. It is interesting to talk a little bit a bout it.

There is something called 'Siddhis', mind-reading being one of them.
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Re: The power of attention.

Postby Phil2 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:33 am

sumbrero23 wrote: This might be socially dangerous.


I don't see this as potentially dangerous as long as you don't use this faculty for your own personal interests, like manipulating others in order to get something from them ...

Your presence can even be very beneficial to others because it will help them to understand themselves better. This is also why Eckhart said that a good healer can only operate from presence, he even quoted Carl Rogers who practiced 'active listening', which means total attention to the other , without any judgement or personal bias (what he called 'client-centered therapy') ... also Carl Jung said that presence and attention are more important in mental healing than technical competences or knowledge ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)
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Re: The power of attention.

Postby Onceler » Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:32 pm

Phil2 wrote:
sumbrero23 wrote: This might be socially dangerous.


I don't see this as potentially dangerous as long as you don't use this faculty for your own personal interests, like manipulating others in order to get something from them ...

Your presence can even be very beneficial to others because it will help them to understand themselves better. This is also why Eckhart said that a good healer can only operate from presence, he even quoted Carl Rogers who practiced 'active listening', which means total attention to the other , without any judgement or personal bias (what he called 'client-centered therapy') ... also Carl Jung said that presence and attention are more important in mental healing than technical competences or knowledge ...


Sombrero, how do you know you're reading the thoughts of others? How do you know that it's not just your thoughts? Potentially, our minds extend quite far beyond the boundaries of our brain.....

I love Carl Rogers. His phrase, "unconditional postive regard" is my professional mantra. He informed much of social work theory in the US. Unconditional listening is, indeed, a powerful thing. Probably the most powerful thing one human being can do for another....especially in the age of smart phones.
Be present, be pleasant.
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Re: The power of attention.

Postby sumbrero23 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:07 pm

Phil2 wrote: a good healer can only operate from presence


Yes the thing I found is.. not everybody wants to be healed. Ego is always resisting and contracting. That's what I meant with ''danger''...
Some people are different than others.. For example: I've experienced what is called ''bullying'' people making fun of me because, who knows the reason why.
Maybe my face, and my way of expressing and moving is funny to them. BUT. My ego doesn't feel treatened at all. Well, now I can manage this better. I really don't care.
In the beginning I would get pissed off or depressed.

But is everybody is capable accepting suffering and humilliation? Some people are more violent and reactive than others.
Not comparing to others, I'm just trying to understand human behaviour. I never had a fight. I always avoid conflict. Don't think that's the root solution. That was my experience.

Onceler wrote:
Sombrero, how do you know you're reading the thoughts of others? How do you know that it's not just your thoughts? Potentially, our minds extend quite far beyond the boundaries of our brain


You said it. That's it.I think reading minds is possible because consciousness doesn't belongs to a particular brain within a particular body.
When you tune into this expanded stream of consciousness every egoic limitation gets destroyed. Meaning your own limits and other people surrounding you too.
Lighting the darkness. Which can be a good or bad thing. Some ego's are harder to break than others.

How do I know im reading minds? because I done this experiment and proved that.
With total attention you can penetrate others thoughts and see what is going on their heads.
And I saw some people getting annoyed by me doing that. They don't understand why. But they feel nervous by me being there observing everything.
And I don't do this on purpose. I think this is our natural way of being. Our real self. I feel good and free.
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Re: The power of attention.

Postby Phil2 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:16 pm

sumbrero23 wrote:
Phil2 wrote: a good healer can only operate from presence


Yes the thing I found is.. not everybody wants to be healed. Ego is always resisting and contracting. That's what I meant with ''danger''...


A good healer even does not 'heal' at all ... there is no 'doing', healing just happens effortlessly ... Eckhart often relates situations where people listening to him said "what did you do to me ? how is it that you solved my problems ?" and Eckhart said that he did nothing at all, just listening to this person in presence and attention ...

Also Ramana Maharshi said the same thing, the silence of the wise person is the greatest service to humanity ... there is no 'doing' ... it operates silently ... just presence (which is called 'satsang' in Indian tradition ie. the presence of the guru) ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)
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Re: The power of attention.

Postby sumbrero23 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:19 pm

Phil2 wrote:A good healer even does not 'heal' at all ... there is no 'doing', healing just happens effortlessly ... Eckhart often relates situations where people listening to him said "what did you do to me ? how is it that you solved my problems ?" and Eckhart said that he did nothing at all, just listening to this person in presence and attention ...

Also Ramana Maharshi said the same thing, the silence of the wise person is the greatest service to humanity ... there is no 'doing' ... it operates silently ... just presence (which is called 'satsang' in Indian tradition ie. the presence of the guru) ...



I understand but I think the kind of situation you are pointing is different.
These people go to see a psychologist or a guru in this case, to listen to them. They are already open minded.
I was talking about a normal social situation. Imagine that. Everybody talking and avoiding akward moments of silence. That's the way we (generally)relate each other.
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Re: The power of attention.

Postby ashley72 » Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:22 am

sumbrero23 wrote:Hi. Long time I don't come here to write.

I have experienced some strange things. When my mind is absolutely clear I can see what others think by deeply observation.
This is not some kind of ''gift''. I think can be equally good or bad. Because we generally lie. Our ego's don't want to be unveiled.
So I'm beginning to see this and I think. This might be socially dangerous. Sometimes I can't stop it and I see others getting uncomfortable by my presence.

Do you ever had any trouble while practicing presence?


Yes but attention and perception cannot be separated. So what do you think perception is?

I think perception has some important characteristic, first there is a kind of pattern recognition occurring, clustering of patterns. Whereby our perception separates out the whole into distinct boundaries or unique categories (parts). The next stage of perception is like the abstract mapping layer, where symbolic labels are added to those patterns. This second stage has taken thousands of years of human evolution. This secondary stage is the supervised learning part of perception. The next or 3rd stage of perception is chunking, where labels or concepts are nested recursively into chunks. The 4th stage of perception is a bootstrapping level, where supervision is no longer required, and the self can perceive new elements of perception in a self sustaining way.

This is obviously a very simplistic look at perception, but I think it's an important first step in understanding how complex the process of perception is.

In a nutshell, perception is taking in sensory input and transforming that sensory input into symbolic representations in the brain. It's also important to recognise that most of this perception processing is not part of conscious perception. Conscious perception only occurs up at higher levels of the symbolic representation. Conscious thought for example is later stages of the perception process.

One interesting trait of panic disorder is 1st fear and 2nd Fear. 1st fear is actually unconscious perception which has occurred from prior learning. 2nd fear is the conscious part of the fear loop. When you try and breakout of the panic loop, you can only work on 2nd fear... which keeps the positive feedback loop activated. The only way to reduce 1st fear is by reducing the conscious part of 2nd fear. You can't just get rid of 1st fear after one cycle reduction of 2nd fear. It usually takes repetitive reduction cycles of 2nd fear to reduce 1st fear.

To summarise, perception is complex and it involves self recursion and feedback loops of symbolic mental representations on many nested or layered categories.
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