awareness

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awareness

Postby xpansion » Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:48 am

If I am awareness and you are the same awareness, if thoughts, emotions etc are content within this awareness and everything is one then why can't I hear your thoughts and feel your feelings? If there is no separation wouldn't my awareness also contain your stuff?
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Re: awareness

Postby Clouded » Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:23 am

Can you imagine how exhausting it must be to experience and process every sentient being's thoughts and feelings in the universe all at the same time? Your head would explode. Have you watched the movie Bruce Almighty? One thought and one feeling at a time is enough for me lol, I don't want anyone else's internal baggage added to my own. Plus many people share/have shared/will share the same thoughts, fears and desires, so your awareness could have already experienced what others have.

Plus I think that thoughts and feelings create a separation of ''what is'', leading to a distortion of reality. You can have awareness without thoughts and feelings but you can't have thoughts or feelings without awareness. Your awareness is untouched and you can always return to it because it is your default state of being. Thoughts and feelings aren't who you are, they're temporary and malleable.
Last edited by Clouded on Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: awareness

Postby Enlightened2B » Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:56 am

You're never going to receive an answer or at least an answer that satisfies you, because it's a conceptual based question stemming from the limited human mind. Yet, where do you expect to receive an answer from? Another limited perspective? Anything I or any other poster say is merely of our own limited opinions. Therefore going beyond the mind why spiritual gurus recommend this.

Consider a perspective open to interpretation without clinging too tightly to it. Our perspectives in these human mind/bodies are limited to what it can possibly conceptually understand which is minuscule in comparison to the entire picture. If Being is Pure and whole and complete and unlimited (which you can experience anytime you please), then, what to make of the appearance of separation you ask? Here's my take from my own experience.

It is unlimited Being (which you are) awakening and knowing itself intimately through each and every limited expression. The greater you zoom out, the more perspectives available to you. The more limited your perspective is, the less available to you. Have you ever had those opportunities where you debated with another person and insisted that you were right and you simply (for the life of you) could not possibly comprehend how this other person was so incredibly dense? Then, at the same moment, have you ever stepped out of your limited view to embrace the fact that you can't possibly know why another perspective is at it is? You become enlightened in this process because you've already embraced a perspective separate than yours, when previously, that other perspective separate than yours was in the dark because it couldn't possible be true. The point I'm trying to make is that the more you open you up, the less limited you become. The more tightly your beliefs are, the more limited you become. You will always be inherently limited while exploring via these human bodies and therefore can never reach the absolute in human form, yet you can become less and less limited by virtue of merely being more and more with your nature as Unconditional loving Being .

If Love is already complete, unlimited and whole, what more can this Oneness that is Aware Energy, ever hope to know? Knowing is its nature. Knowing merely IS. You ARE. Being IS. But, Being IS xpansion and Being IS E2B, and Being IS Clouded. Can you see the lack of separation between Being and each physical expression? Ultimately, it is only Being. There is not Being......with objects within it, there is Being exploring and knowing itself as each physical expression, yet not limited merely to each physical expression. Everything merely just Be's. A Tree is Pure Being. A rock is pure Being. A particle is Pure Being. Existence is what Being is. Anything that exists is existence itself including you! However, the added bonus of the human mind is that it convinces us that we are not Being, but only a limited aspect of what Being can potentially be by creating conceptual labels on what is and what isn't. Questions like these really only enhance this idea further.

Being can only know itself in relation to something that is (perceived to be) not itself. Therefore, relative reality is all about relationships of all kinds. You (Pure Being/I AM) are learning about yourself through every physical expression in existence. How you relate to any and every other physical expression is how you (Being) are learning about yourself. There is no objective learning. Being merely IS. What you learn is merely a subjective form of learning. The only thing we all can see together is that there is only Pure Unconditional Being/Love at the heart of everything. Within that, there is no separation. Only Oneness. It is only the mind which creates the idea of separation. You wouldn't learn much, if you had all of the answers at your finger tips, meaning all of the perspectives available at once. Therefore, it's a game of perspectives. Each unique perspective adds up to the whole.

There's your conceptual answer. But, for me, I'm learning more and more that questions like these are only hindering my growth. If you really want conceptual answers, I would recommend the study of NDE/OBE and other non-physical realities, but not as a main spiritual practice, merely as a complement that could perhaps provide some helpful pointers.
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Re: awareness

Postby rachMiel » Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:32 am

xpansion wrote:If I am awareness and you are the same awareness, if thoughts, emotions etc are content within this awareness and everything is one then why can't I hear your thoughts and feel your feelings? If there is no separation wouldn't my awareness also contain your stuff?

Imo you are trying to use the tools of analytical thought and logic to fathom that which is not of analysis or thought or logic. It's like trying to parse truth ... or name the unnameable.
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Re: awareness

Postby xpansion » Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:10 am

Of course there is no answer and of course it's a concept and of course I'm using analytical thought and logic and so is Eckharte Tolle in his books. ETs ideas are just as much a hypothetical concept as mine. It makes perfect sense though that if my awareness is the container for all that is then it should also contain everyone else's ephemera too. Sure that would be confusing and make your head explode but if awareness is impersonal then it doesn't care.
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Re: awareness

Postby Phil2 » Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:17 pm

xpansion wrote:If I am awareness and you are the same awareness, if thoughts, emotions etc are content within this awareness and everything is one then why can't I hear your thoughts and feel your feelings? If there is no separation wouldn't my awareness also contain your stuff?


In your dreams you also meet all kinds of people, all those people in the dream are not separate from the dreamer, right ?

Would you ask why is it that you don't hear the thoughts and feel the emotions of all those dreamed people ?

??
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Re: awareness

Postby rachMiel » Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:36 pm

xpansion wrote:Of course there is no answer
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Re: awareness

Postby Enlightened2B » Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:26 pm

xpansion wrote:Of course there is no answer and of course it's a concept and of course I'm using analytical thought and logic and so is Eckharte Tolle in his books. ETs ideas are just as much a hypothetical concept as mine. It makes perfect sense though that if my awareness is the container for all that is then it should also contain everyone else's ephemera too. Sure that would be confusing and make your head explode but if awareness is impersonal then it doesn't care.


From the Greater perspective, you can. However, each physical expression is limited. Your body is limited in what it can possibly experience as is mine. That's the point of experience. If you had all the knowledge at your fingertips (Awareness of all perspectives simultaneously), then there would be no opportunities for growth while exploring this human expression. Consider the idea that when your body dies, all of your questions will be answered as you will have full access to all perspectives in your life review process.
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Re: awareness

Postby epiphany55 » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:58 pm

Everything is one at the quantum level, but is everything one consciousness? That is the question.

To me, giving "oneness" the property of consciousness is a leap beyond the evidence we have. But this does not take away from the (as good as) fact that there is only separation of form, in terms of how energy flows in the universe. Zoom in on the particles that come together and create form, and the lines between each form appear to dissolve. But that doesn't mean that what emerges from these forms is also connected, because what emerges is in the realm of metaphysics and subject purely to experience of those who are able to experience it.

The reason you don't experience anyone else's conscious contents is because your brain is not connected to theirs. However, there is a thought experiment whereby if you were cloned, atom for atom, it may be that you open a new window of consciousness for you as a subjective experiencer in a new body. If consciousness is simply to do with the structure and behaviour of particles, and that structure and behaviour were replicated down to the last atom, then would what you call "I" have two consciousnesses?

Or would the separation of form in space be enough to create a separate experiencer?

Something to mull over! :shock:
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Re: awareness

Postby Enlightened2B » Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:45 am

epiphany55 wrote:Everything is one at the quantum level, but is everything one consciousness? That is the question.

To me, giving "oneness" the property of consciousness is a leap beyond the evidence we have. But this does not take away from the (as good as) fact that there is only separation of form, in terms of how energy flows in the universe. Zoom in on the particles that come together and create form, and the lines between each form appear to dissolve. But that doesn't mean that what emerges from these forms is also connected, because what emerges is in the realm of metaphysics and subject purely to experience of those who are able to experience it.


The realm of metaphysics or whatever you'd like to call it, is absolutely NOT separate from Physics. It's all one connected whole. It only appears that way perhaps because you take your own human consciousness as something separate perhaps than the consciousness of a bird which is a perfectly understandable perspective given our position experiencing through these human bodies. You take your own consciousness as something separate from the existence of a cell in your body, a bacteria, a particle. I don't like to use the term consciousness when it comes to spirituality because consciousness has a very 'material, brainy' connotation. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that consciousness has emergent qualities involving the brain. Who knows? I'm not a scientist and that stuff is no longer important to me.

All I know is Being. You are Being. I am Being. The tree outside is Being. The rock is Being. Particles are Being. When you embrace your entire experience and don't limit yourself to any one part, all of those things are one. Sure, they are separate expressions, but they all are AMness just like you and I are AMness at the core. We've only forgotten through our conditioning. :D

This is why concepts and definitions and labels really hinder our growth I feel. I've come to see this myself over the past 2-3 weeks as I had a pretty big awakening experience two weeks ago....realizing that when I simply embrace my experience and that means all of my experience, my goodness, there is literally only Being....Being expressing itself as a human, a rock, a tree, but still only Pure Unconditional Loving Being at the core. Separation is just a mind concept. Concepts and labels fall away. Everything is One. Attempting to question this scientifically or conceptually is perfectly ok, but will never lead to awakening because the mind will always limit, limit, limit and will define and conceptualize 'what is' because that's exactly what the mind does. What is....simply IS. You ARE and I AM. Everything else is just mind's attempt to make analytical/rational sense of it. It's all good.

Reality is subjective. Man, have I come to realize this of late! There are only unique interpretations from every avenue of experiential exploration possible. There is no room for objectivity when you take into considering the unique perspective of a particle or a cell. Existence IS. Human consciousness involving a brain, is merely one potential avenue of exploration for Being. Of course I could be wrong, but that's ok too 8)
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Re: awareness

Postby epiphany55 » Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:04 am

Enlightened2B, I think it's important we recognise that awakenings can happen through both knowledge acquisition and subjective experience. One is no more profound than the other if the result is to break down the illusion of separateness and the self that we have been conditioned to believe in.

There are many people on this earth who would be awakened to a whole new level simply by understanding the fundamental material connection between the beings you mentioned (the "we are all stardust" concept), questioning the notion of free will and understanding how the mind is conditioned. This is not realised through subjective experience, it is knowledge that can be acquired and verified.

I think a lot of the knowledge that science has so far given us can resonate beautifully with the subjective exploration of consciousness. It can help us to identify the illusions that tend to mislead us when we take our experiences at face value. For example, what if through meditation someone felt weightless? Obviously they are not weightless, as we could attest when we try lifting them, so their subjective experience is merely an illusion that offers little in the way of reality/truth. What about hallucinations? Again, if we leave reality purely to subjective experience then we are subject to all manner of illusions without any filter to keep us from stepping into an abyss of fanciful nonsense (i.e. religion).

If it weren't for people like Lawrence Krauss, Neil DeGrasse Tyson, Michio Kaku... introducing key scientific discoveries to the layperson, I doubt I would ever have contemplated the connection between all things to the degree I did. Physics and neuroscience have enriched and, at the same time, challenged my experience of reality.

Experiences are not always synonymous with reality and our brains will often create marvellously fictitious stories to attempt to explain these experiences. These illusions ought to be revealed externally as well as internally.
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Re: awareness

Postby Enlightened2B » Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:40 am

Epiphany,

That's not what I mean by subjective experience. I'm saying reality itself is subjective. Whatever you experience as Pure Being is exactly valid for your own unique experience. If it's experienced, it's real for that perspective. It might not be real for another perspective, but that's why, embracing perspectives separate from your own can go a long way to "enlightenment" in understanding that all perspectives are valid even if they seem completely nonsensical (such as hallucinations). I'm saying that there is no objective reality outside of the subjective experience of it from any and every potential experiential point of view. One Energy. One Being. Multiple relative experiential perspectives of the same One Being that I AM.

You claim that feeling 'weightless' in meditation is an illusion. That's only your own subjective limited interpretation in perhaps the belief that OBE's are indeed not real and therefore, the experience of 'weightlessness' is illusory for you and that too is a perfectly valid perspective! Yet, illusory is another subjective term.

As for awakening. The awakening I am referring to has nothing at all to do with material knowledge nor does it have to do with any type of metaphysical experiences nor the study of non-physical realities. What it does have to do with is the embracing and loving of everything in your experience. I AM. That's it. I AM happiness and I AM fear. I AM sick. I AM healthy. I AM all of it! I AM existence itself! There is no experience without I AM.

When you stop labeling, conceptualizing and defining, there is only I AM. What you are referencing from material scientists that you mentioned and material science in general (which I do enjoy) has nothing at all to do with awakening to this Pure Unconditional Loving Being that you are. The more you attempt to understand this conceptually through the mind, the less you will be able to Be the love that you are. Love merely IS. It is unlimited as Pure Being. It can only and I mean only be seen as your nature when you cease trying to understand this through the mind and simply allow your experience to Be as you. Opening up to life means throwing away those concepts and definitions and once again....embracing everything as YOU. Relatively speaking concepts of course exist, but as far as awakening is concerned, they only hinder our growth if we cling to them.

I enjoy science. I have a strong passion for nutrition. There is no question that the physical Universe operates in a certain way as we could tell through repeated observations (aka, physical science). However, that physical Universe is not separate from the Being that it is. Being merely IS. Being IS you and Being IS me and Being IS the tree outside. Being is expressing itself and knowing itself AS the physical universe. The only separation is in relative appearances. I think I've finally grasped non-duality after two years of searching. It's kind of funny.
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Re: awareness

Postby Rob X » Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:04 pm

xpansion wrote:If I am awareness and you are the same awareness, if thoughts, emotions etc are content within this awareness and everything is one then why can't I hear your thoughts and feel your feelings? If there is no separation wouldn't my awareness also contain your stuff?


Awareness is a label pasted on to 'something' that is utterly inexplicable (I suggest holding these labels very lightly.)

So what is meant by this label? Simply put, it points to the very 'fact' of Being, of Reality itself (more labels of course.)

And what is meant by the claim that this is what you are? It means that ultimately, the very ground and essence of this particular expression as 'a person in the world' IS this inexplicable 'happening' of existence.

The Upanishads uses the example of the ocean and the wave to illustrate this. Here you are crashing along with all the other waves (with the foreboding sense that you will soon dissolve) when you get the intuition that there is something faulty in this perception. It starts to dawn on you that you are not other than the happening of ocean itself.

But this does not mean that the wave has become the ocean (with access to the experiences of all the other waves), it means that the wave has a direct realisation of the creative ground, power and substance of its being.

So the puzzle is more or less a semantic issue. A particular wave does not contain the ocean, so in that sense the drippy little wave cannot claim to be the ocean. YET the wave IS the ocean since there is nothing OTHER than the ocean.
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Re: awareness

Postby rachMiel » Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:23 pm

Rob X wrote:Awareness is a label pasted on to 'something' that is utterly inexplicable

+1
The Upanishads uses the example of the ocean and the wave to illustrate this. Here you are crashing along with all the other waves (with the foreboding sense that you will soon dissolve) when you get the intuition that there is something faulty in this perception. It starts to dawn on you that you are not other than the happening of ocean itself.

But this does not mean that the wave has become the ocean (with access to the experiences of all the other waves), it means that the wave has a direct realisation of the creative ground, power and substance of its being.

So the puzzle is more or less a semantic issue. A particular wave does not contain the ocean, so in that sense the drippy little wave cannot claim to be the ocean. YET the wave IS the ocean since there is nothing OTHER than the ocean.

Advaita sees this a bit differently.

Conventionally, the wave and the ocean are both objects, one particular, one universal. Ultimately, they are both water (Brahman).
Last edited by rachMiel on Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: awareness

Postby Enlightened2B » Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:15 pm

Rob X wrote:
Awareness is a label pasted on to 'something' that is utterly inexplicable (I suggest holding these labels very lightly.)


Yes, totally agree about the label aspect. Any attempt for us to conceptualize or define it (which is really all we do here on this board :lol: ) is only limiting what we actually are.

However, I don't think it's inexplicable. It is....WHAT IS. It's explained/expressed through our communication and actions here in physicality. The expression part of Being is within the physicality it is expressing through. I AM (as Being) awakening and learning about myself through this physical form of E2B. I AM also learning and awakening through every other drop of matter as well. The I AM is the I AM. Not so much inexplicable as undefinable. 8) That's my take.
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