Problems with "Not Having Problems"

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Re: Problems with "Not Having Problems"

Postby ria » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:11 pm

Phil2 wrote:You are making a confusion between a 'judgement' and a mere statement of facts ... seeing 'what is' is not a judgement ...


You are the one that is confused. Facts can be proven true or false. Most of your post (or all of it) were statements of opinion and judgement. It's how you personally view the world, which is not a fact, since I may view it different from you.
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Re: Problems with "Not Having Problems"

Postby Enlightened2B » Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:02 pm

Phil, I don't fully disagree with what you have said here in this perspective below :

We live in an hypocritical society where it is considered shameful to beg for money or food ... this is not the case in many other cultures eg. Asian culture where begging is not considered shameful (many Buddhist monks beg for their food and people consider it as an opportunity for their karma to help monks by giving them offerings) ... this is due to our 'materialistic' approach based on material exchange: I give you food or money IF you give me your work, this is 'conditional' (there is a 'IF') ... so we always have to 'merit' things by our own actions, we learn this very early at school, when we do the 'right' things, what others expect from us, then we are rewarded ... this could be called 'conditional love': I love you BECAUSE you do what I tell you, else I reject you or punish you ... this is not 'unconditional love' which is 'I love you for what you ARE ' (not for what you 'DO' or don't do) ... therefore we have learned very early to 'cheat' and adopt attitudes expected by others, to conform to the rules, which is the hypocrisy in which we live, we wear 'masks', a social 'facade' ... there is no truth in this, we are not 'real' ... we become alien to ourselves, second-hand persons ... hence all the neuroses of our time ... there is no consistency between what we think, what we say and what we do ...


What you wrote above is not a fact at all and merely an opinion and a perfectly valid opinion as it is if you ask me. Yet at the same time, I agree with ria in that you continue to label your own opinions (which is exactly what this quote above is), as facts. This has come up now NUMEROUS times on this forum with you, and I'm a bit surprised that you still can't see what you are doing by labeling your own perspective as facts when it's been pointed out to you countless times by countless posters. It's almost ironic that you tell people the quote which goes something like this:

"We don't see the world as it is, we see the world as we are"

Or something along those lines, but yet, you're doing exactly that, by claiming your own perspectives as facts. I'm a bit surprised that you can't see this. You have a wealth of spiritual information, but yet, it doesn't seem like you apply it to your own life. It's the same as punching someone in the face and then in the exact same breath turning your head to someone else and telling that person that punching people in the face is wrong.

Your perspective is equally of value as mine or anyone else's, but labeling our perspective as a fact means you're closing the door on any perspective outside of your own. A fact is more of an objectification of a perspective and creates more limits on what you already are. When you label your perspectives as facts, you are only limiting the mere potential of what you or anyone else already is. Reality is subjective and constantly changing with greater insight and new information. So, how can anything be a fact? It can only be a fact to you and that perspective too, is perfectly valid, because...it exists! But I'm trying to get you to see how limiting you are by using the word 'fact' after every opinion of yours and how it comes across to other posters.

So, try to understand the pointers that I and other posters are giving you here and keep posting your perspectives because I find them valuable to all of us.
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Re: Problems with "Not Having Problems"

Postby Phil2 » Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:58 pm

Enlightened2B wrote:
What you wrote above is not a fact at all and merely an opinion and a perfectly valid opinion as it is if you ask me.


ok I think we have to clarify the difference between facts and opinions or judgements ...

Fundamentally an opinion or judgement contains a personal 'bias', a judgement like 'good' or bad', giving a moral 'quality' to facts (opinion comes from a Latin root which means 'to suppose' or 'to believe', which of course is not fact) ... while a fact is the mere statement of things as they are resulting from non-personal, non-biased observation ...

So please show me where in the above post I said that something was 'good' or 'bad', did I qualify the facts ?

??
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
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Re: Problems with "Not Having Problems"

Postby Enlightened2B » Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:25 pm

Phil2 wrote:
Fundamentally an opinion or judgement contains a personal 'bias', a judgement like 'good' or bad', giving a moral 'quality' to facts (opinion comes from a Latin root which means 'to suppose' or 'to believe', which of course is not fact) ... while a fact is the mere statement of things as they are resulting from non-personal, non-biased observation ...

So please show me where in the above post I said that something was 'good' or 'bad', did I qualify the facts ?

??


Observation itself implies bias. We all approach life from our conditioned perspectives which is why there is only subjectivity. All observation IS subjective. Can you find me one perspective that is not subjective and in turn, not bias at all? All perspectives are biased. The goal of awakening is to become less and less limited by allowing, allowing and allowing, embracing all perspectives in the understanding that it is all you already.

Yet, you are acting as though your perspective is the perspective alone of Source and is the only correct perspective by labeling it as a fact, not understanding that this only coming from your own limited understanding of who you are and in turn, you are rejecting any other perspectives as not facts, since they can never match your perspective, which in your mind is a fact. We are not Source alone individually. We are perspectives of Source collectively. Which means, no perspective is above another. There are no facts, merely subjective interpretations of 'what is' which is exactly what your post was and I must say that it was a beautiful subjective interpretation, which I resonated with at certain parts, until you decided to label it as a mere....fact. You are a human being, just like I am. You can see a hypocritical society, while I might not see that. Does that mean my own unique take is not a fact while yours is? How so?

We don't have access to the greater perspective of totality while in human limited form. But, claiming any perspective to be a fact is claiming that perspective to be the greater Perspective of totality which none of us have including you and I.

It doesn't have to strictly say 'good/bad' in order for there to be a personal unique interpretation. Everything we say here is unique to each of us, based on our own unique life experiences, aka, conditioning. Yes, Phil, you too have conditioning, just like I do. We all do. You have bias, just like I do!

Is it a fact that you said what you said? Of course. What is is. It is a fact that Phil wrote what he wrote. Just like, it is a fact, that I wrote what I wrote. But, what makes your perspective any more of a fact than someone who disagrees with it? Only your own mind, meaning your own limited understanding. Claiming something as a fact is just more definition and labels upon 'what is' and in turn, you are limiting 'what is' by putting into a hole of only your perspective.

The perspective itself, meaning the content of what you are saying, is just your own interpretation on 'what is'. It's neither true nor false. It's just your unique take. Just like this post here is my own unique perspective. It too, is not a fact. I'm going to post your quote again and you tell me how this post below is a non-personal, non-biased observation. That's your words of the definition of a fact.

This was your post:

We live in an hypocritical society where it is considered shameful to beg for money or food ... this is not the case in many other cultures eg. Asian culture where begging is not considered shameful (many Buddhist monks beg for their food and people consider it as an opportunity for their karma to help monks by giving them offerings) ... this is due to our 'materialistic' approach based on material exchange: I give you food or money IF you give me your work, this is 'conditional' (there is a 'IF') ... so we always have to 'merit' things by our own actions, we learn this very early at school, when we do the 'right' things, what others expect from us, then we are rewarded ... this could be called 'conditional love': I love you BECAUSE you do what I tell you, else I reject you or punish you ... this is not 'unconditional love' which is 'I love you for what you ARE ' (not for what you 'DO' or don't do) ... therefore we have learned very early to 'cheat' and adopt attitudes expected by others, to conform to the rules, which is the hypocrisy in which we live, we wear 'masks', a social 'facade' ... there is no truth in this, we are not 'real' ... we become alien to ourselves, second-hand persons ... hence all the neuroses of our time ... there is no consistency between what we think, what we say and what we do ...


Where is the fact here? That you called society hypocritical is ITSELF a blatant judgment/bias on your part. Can you seriously not see that? It's almost comical that you called society hypocritical and then claimed that what you wrote was a 'non-personal, non biased observation'.. The first sentence alone already washes any idea of non-bias out the window.

Or are claiming that it is an objective fact that society is or isn't hypocritical. This is strictly your own interpretation of reality/society and nothing other than your interpretation. It's not right nor wrong. It's just a perspective. Even that you do see it as a fact, is itself just your own perspective! There's nothing inherently wrong with claiming your own perspective as a fact. But, understand how much you are limiting yourself and others when you do as such. Can you not see why ria, myself, dijmart, Jack, and countless other posters have pointed this out to you on numerous occasions?

I think you grasp spirituality conceptually really well as evidenced by the wealth of information in your posts, but I see very little evidence of any experiential grasp as evidenced by your lack of understanding for other perspectives outside of your own.
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Re: Problems with "Not Having Problems"

Postby Webwanderer » Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:58 pm

Phil2 wrote:So please show me where in the above post I said that something was 'good' or 'bad', did I qualify the facts ?

Okay, let's begin.

We live in an hypocritical society

This is a judgment of the nature of the society we live in. Not in so much in terms of right or wrong (although it seems to be implied), but in terms of the broad brush that includes all the members of society.

where it is considered shameful to beg for money or food ...

Who says it is shameful? Now there may well be some who believe it is shameful, but it is you that tags society at large with this negative attribute. There are many in society who give to those in need who do not consider it shameful to beg. Your facts seem to have over looked them. And then, who decided it was considered shameful? You seem to believe that and apply it to 'society' which includes all of us. And who decided it was wrong enough to see it as shameful and to point out that it is considered so? Look at how your statement is a condemnation by implication.

so we always have to 'merit' things by our own actions

Again you take the blanket approach as this 'we' is applied to everyone. This is not a fact but is your opinion and easily demonstrated as such by looking at individuals in the group called society. It suggests judgment on your part by the use of such negative terms like 'shameful'. 'We' includes everyone in the group called society.

therefore we have learned very early to 'cheat' and adopt attitudes expected by others, to conform to the rules, which is the hypocrisy in which we live, we wear 'masks', a social 'facade' ... there is no truth in this, we are not 'real' ... we become alien to ourselves, second-hand persons ... hence all the neuroses of our time ... there is no consistency between what we think, what we say and what we do ...

This whole paragraph is ripe with condemnation. "...we.... cheat", "...is the hypocrisy in which we live,...", "...we wear 'masks', a social 'facade'...", "... we become ... second-hand persons...", and the rest. You say they are facts. In some specific cases they may well be. In others they are most certainly not. But you make no distinction, condemning the whole of society without telling the whole story. You distort by omission and claim facts where the facts you cite are partial and really are suggestive of being the product of your own negative judgment and opinion - so demonstrated by the omissions. It suggests you are trying to make a case for something that is not supported by the whole factual account.

This post is of course the 'facts' of your request to show you the good or bad. The language used is used by your choice. It is the language of condemnation, and trying to paint it as neutral and unbiased is easily seen through by all who have called you out on it. Of course there is no right or wrong from the greater perspective, but your condemnation shows no evidence that it comes from that view. The language and broadness of the brush seems clear that you hold an underlying belief that there is something wrong with society.

This is how I see it. Whether it is right or wrong is irrelevant. It is a fact that this is the way I see it. Aren't facts fun?

My recommendation is to get beyond facts which can so easily be used to lie to the benefit of the user. Let's get on to an inclusiveness that leads to clarity, one that sees beyond the limitation of facts and can free us from our bias.

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Re: Problems with "Not Having Problems"

Postby ria » Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:12 pm

FYI- I see WW posted while I was typing...Anyways, I'm posting "as is".

Enlightened2B wrote:What you wrote above is not a fact at all and merely an opinion and a perfectly valid opinion as it is if you ask me. Yet at the same time, I agree with ria in that you continue to label your own opinions (which is exactly what this quote above is), as facts.


Exactly, he is not stating facts, but opinions or judgements. If they are valid or not, is an opinion and that's one way to know it's NOT a fact, because someone can agree or not agree with it. Last Thursday, Nov. 27th 2014 was Thanksgiving Day in the U.S., anyone want to dispute that? See, it's not an opinion, it's a fact. You may not celebrate that holiday, but it doesn't change the fact that the holiday exists.

The issue I had with his post was that he was doing a whole lot of complaining about "society", but "we" are society. All of us are the society that he is judging. If that's how you feel (valid or not), then "do" something about it...like feed, give money to and/or shelter the homeless or for that matter anyone who asks since you don't think people should work for food, if that's what you're saying "society" should do, then do it. So, if you personally aren't going to take action for the cause, then why complain about others not taking action. Especially, if you're going to say "there's no consistency between what we think, what we say and what we do....." Right?
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Re: Problems with "Not Having Problems"

Postby Enlightened2B » Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:29 pm

ria wrote:FYI- I see WW posted while I was typing...Anyways, I'm posting "as is".

Enlightened2B wrote:What you wrote above is not a fact at all and merely an opinion and a perfectly valid opinion as it is if you ask me. Yet at the same time, I agree with ria in that you continue to label your own opinions (which is exactly what this quote above is), as facts.


Exactly, he is not stating facts, but opinions or judgements. If they are valid or not, is an opinion and that's one way to know it's NOT a fact, because someone can agree or not agree with it. Last Thursday, Nov. 27th 2014 was Thanksgiving Day in the U.S., anyone want to dispute that? See, it's not an opinion, it's a fact.

The issue I had with his post was that he was doing a whole lot of complaining about "society", but "we" are society. All of us are the society that he is judging. If that's how you feel (valid or not), then "do" something about it...like feed, give money to and/or shelter the homeless or for that matter anyone who asks since you don't think people should work for food, if that's what you're saying "society" should do, then do it. So, if you personally aren't going to take action for the cause, then why complain about others not taking action. Especially, if you're going to say "there's no consistency between what we think, what we say and what we do....." Right?


Your point is well taken. Granted, I didn't really have a problem with what he said initially. If that's his perspective, then, that's his perspective. I don't fully agree nor fully disagree with it. I'm not going to sit here and break it down and start beefing him apart for it, because it's his own perspective and he is entitled to it. That aside, I will start breaking it down, once he starts claiming it to be a fact which is what I and WW have done above....

When you claim your perspective as fact, it's an attempt to end and win a non-existent debate in a very manipulative, unloving, non compassionate manner. It's basically saying "I am right and you are wrong because what I am saying is a fact. There....discussion over". This way, he puts the discussion into a corner where you can't debate any further, because, guess what? Phil is stating a fact, while I, or you or anyone he is debating with, is not stating a fact. It's incredibly unloving, limiting, condescending and manipulative of another person. You'll notice often that Phil states such as "stick to the facts" or 'facts are facts'. This is a fear based mechanism for any perspective outside of his own.

This is why I say that this is a classic sign of someone who has conceptually grasped teachings, but hasn't actually lived it yet.

So be it.
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Re: Problems with "Not Having Problems"

Postby Phil2 » Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:21 am

Amen !

...

What a storm in a cup of tea ...

:lol:
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Re: Problems with "Not Having Problems"

Postby Webwanderer » Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:51 am

I love how emoticons can be both defensive and offensive at the same time. You dared this community to try and expose your 'facts', and when it was done so easily by so many, you resort to more of the same dismissiveness that brought this calling out to begin with. It seems to be a very tough lesson for you. Understand however, we are not your teachers. We are your mirror. You must make the discoveries that bring clarity on your own tab.

That said, we are also your siblings and allies. We are in this together.

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Re: Problems with "Not Having Problems"

Postby Phil2 » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:29 am

Webwanderer wrote: It seems to be a very tough lesson for you.


Is this an assumption you make WW ? ... or a fact ?

:?:

This reminds me a scene in the movie "Apocalypse Now", when Colonel Kurz (played by Marlon Brando) says about freedom:

"Have you ever considered any real freedom ? Freedom from the opinion of others... even the opinions of yourself?"

... but of course Kurz was totally mad ...

:lol:

Now I'd like to tell you something, to all my friends here, for me what we discuss here is not that much important finally ... it is all intellectual stuff ... what is important is the way we experience it ... our emotions that those discussions trigger inside ... as long as we are ready to fight or struggle to defend opinions or beliefs, to 'make points', to be right and make others wrong, then it is a sure sign of emotional (and spiritual) immaturity ... and we have seen some examples here lately ... and elsewhere too ...

And in this respect, each of us is fully 100 % responsible for the way we experience our own life ... there can be no freedom when our experience depends on others, or when we blame others because they are not as we expect them to be ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
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Re: Problems with "Not Having Problems"

Postby Webwanderer » Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:21 pm

Phil2 wrote:
Webwanderer wrote: It seems to be a very tough lesson for you.


Is this an assumption you make WW ? ... or a fact ?

It's a fact!!! ..............................that it seems that way to me.

... it is all intellectual stuff ... what is important is the way we experience it ... our emotions that those discussions trigger inside ... as long as we are ready to fight or struggle to defend opinions or beliefs, to 'make points', to be right and make others wrong, then it is a sure sign of emotional (and spiritual) immaturity ... and we have seen some examples here lately ... and elsewhere too ...

I can generally agree with this and I suspect the others in this discussion can as well. But I do hope you're standing in front of a mirror as you share this insight. Re-read your own posts. It could be quite revealing.

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Re: Problems with "Not Having Problems"

Postby Phil2 » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:18 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
... it is all intellectual stuff ... what is important is the way we experience it ... our emotions that those discussions trigger inside ... as long as we are ready to fight or struggle to defend opinions or beliefs, to 'make points', to be right and make others wrong, then it is a sure sign of emotional (and spiritual) immaturity ... and we have seen some examples here lately ... and elsewhere too ...


I can generally agree with this and I suspect the others in this discussion can as well. But I do hope you're standing in front of a mirror as you share this insight. Re-read your own posts. It could be quite revealing.


Agreeing intellectually is one thing ... but we see too often here (and also elsewhere) that this intellectual understanding can easily be lost in the fire of real interactions ...

:lol:

As the ancient wisdom says: "Knowing and not acting is not knowing"
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)
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Re: Problems with "Not Having Problems"

Postby Webwanderer » Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:21 pm

Phil2 wrote:Agreeing intellectually is one thing ... but we see too often here (and also elsewhere) that this intellectual understanding can easily be lost in the fire of real interactions ...

I said nothing of agreeing 'intellectually'. Is this misrepresentation what you need to find comfort in this defensive structure you've built?

And more emoticons. Do they help make your case? Or do they help with your need to be right?

As the ancient wisdom says: "Knowing and not acting is not knowing"

How about some present wisdom? The kind known in silence and clarity as we consider and feel out who we are beyond the defined thought constructs of mind. Feel for truth rather than think about a comeback.

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Re: Problems with "Not Having Problems"

Postby Phil2 » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:29 am

Webwanderer wrote:
Phil2 wrote:Agreeing intellectually is one thing ... but we see too often here (and also elsewhere) that this intellectual understanding can easily be lost in the fire of real interactions ...

I said nothing of agreeing 'intellectually'. Is this misrepresentation what you need to find comfort in this defensive structure you've built?

And more emoticons. Do they help make your case? Or do they help with your need to be right?



Are you irritated by emoticons WW ?

:lol:
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
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Re: Problems with "Not Having Problems"

Postby Phil2 » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:36 am

Webwanderer wrote:
Phil2 wrote:
Webwanderer wrote: It seems to be a very tough lesson for you.


Is this an assumption you make WW ? ... or a fact ?

It's a fact!!! ..............................that it seems that way to me.



Would you say that your dreams are also "facts" ?

??
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