Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

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Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby Erik » Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:09 pm

Spiritual teachers often say that my true nature is Awareness, and that that is never born and never dies, but there is something about that which I don’t understand. When the body goes into deep sleep or faints, awareness also disappears. I don’t see why the same wouldn’t happen when the body dies. My conclusion would be that awareness is dependent on the body, and that when the body goes into deep sleep, faints, or dies, awareness also disappears. That leads me to think that I am the body and that the body is aware. Therefore, when the body dies, I die.

I hope someone can enlighten me. Thanks
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby Webwanderer » Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:36 pm

You might want to catch up on the massive volume of NDE/TDE/OBE evidence that is out there. There are multiple threads in this forum addressing the subject with in-depth discussions and links to NDE sites. Look under the sub-forum heading "Beyond The Physical". Here's the link.

viewforum.php?f=47

There are others addressing the subject throughout the rest of the forum. You can find thousands of references by searching NDE in the search function at the top of the page. You can also Google it or search it on youtube. There is far more evidence than can be discounted by suggesting that consciousness is merely brain function.

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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby rachMiel » Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:52 pm

Speculating about awareness is like pondering the taste of a mango. It just doesn't make sense ... except as a mind game (which, granted, can be great fun!).

The taste of a mango must be experienced. Awareness must be experienced.

Does awareness die with the body? I don't know. And I don't (can't!) take anyone's word for it. It's ... the mystery.

What is the potential for awareness in this body, this mind, this lifetime, this moment? Now that's imo a really good and fruitful question. :P
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby Erik » Sat Nov 29, 2014 5:06 pm

Webwanderer wrote:You might want to catch up on the massive volume of NDE/TDE/OBE evidence that is out there. There are multiple threads in this forum addressing the subject with in-depth discussions and links to NDE sites. Look under the sub-forum heading "Beyond The Physical". Here's the link.

viewforum.php?f=47

There are others addressing the subject throughout the rest of the forum. You can find thousands of references by searching NDE in the search function at the top of the page. You can also Google it or search it on youtube. There is far more evidence than can be discounted by suggesting that consciousness is merely brain function.

WW


Thanks Webwanderer, I'll look into it. But I'm not looking for scientific proof or evidence actually, but I'm just trying to get a feel or an understanding of it.

For example, if someone would step into my room right now and cut off the head of my body, while my body is sitting here writing on a laptop, what would happen? Of course sensory perceptions, thoughts and feelings would disappear, because they are dependent on the body. Do you think that the Awareness in which the sensory perceptions, thoughts and feelings take place would remain untouched? Or to put it another way: Death is something that happens inside of me, but not TO me, in the same way that a body can get killed during a movie on the TV screen, but the TV screen would remain untouched?
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby Erik » Sat Nov 29, 2014 5:14 pm

rachMiel wrote:Speculating about awareness is like pondering the taste of a mango. It just doesn't make sense ... except as a mind game (which, granted, can be great fun!).

The taste of a mango must be experienced. Awareness must be experienced.

Does awareness die with the body? I don't know. And I don't (can't!) take anyone's word for it. It's ... the mystery.

What is the potential for awareness in this body, this mind, this lifetime, this moment? Now that's imo a really good and fruitful question. :P


Thanks, rachMiel! I think I understand what you mean. But it seems to me that spiritually awakened people experience a sort of deep knowing that that which they are is never born and never dies, and of course with that comes a great peace (obviously, because it's kind of stressful to think that that which you are will one day cease to exist). I'm looking for that knowing, that understanding. In other words, I'm looking for the experience of the taste of the mango. Of course, all we can communicate on this forum are concepts, but they might be able to point me to the experience.
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby ria » Sat Nov 29, 2014 5:51 pm

Erik wrote: When the body goes into deep sleep or faints, awareness also disappears.


Or content of the mind stops/disappears and awareness remains, that's why when you awaken and content returns, you know you had been asleep/fainted.
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby Webwanderer » Sat Nov 29, 2014 6:17 pm

Erik wrote:Thanks Webwanderer, I'll look into it. But I'm not looking for scientific proof or evidence actually, but I'm just trying to get a feel or an understanding of it.

The exploration of NDE's/TDE's is where the most insightful understanding will likely come from. These are reports of actual experience beyond the body. It's more than hypothetical or philosophical. Explore for a while and see for yourself.

For example, if someone would step into my room right now and cut off the head of my body, while my body is sitting here writing on a laptop, what would happen? Of course sensory perceptions, thoughts and feelings would disappear, because they are dependent on the body.

NDE/TDE research will answer this for you. And don't just assume that thoughts and feelings would disappear. Those with experience suggest otherwise. Be willing to give up your current beliefs in favor of a greater truth. The good news is that you get to decide for yourself what is a greater truth.

Do you think that the Awareness in which the sensory perceptions, thoughts and feelings take place would remain untouched?

Generally speaking yes. There is however, likely to be a great expansion of consciousness as one returns to the greater awareness from which we came.

Or to put it another way: Death is something that happens inside of me, but not TO me, in the same way that a body can get killed during a movie on the TV screen, but the TV screen would remain untouched?

Death happens both inside us and to us. But it is not a finality, it is an experience, a transition back to our origin. Consider death not as a noun, but as a verb.

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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby rachMiel » Sat Nov 29, 2014 6:26 pm

Erik wrote:Thanks, rachMiel! I think I understand what you mean. But it seems to me that spiritually awakened people experience a sort of deep knowing that that which they are is never born and never dies, and of course with that comes a great peace (obviously, because it's kind of stressful to think that that which you are will one day cease to exist). I'm looking for that knowing, that understanding. In other words, I'm looking for the experience of the taste of the mango. Of course, all we can communicate on this forum are concepts, but they might be able to point me to the experience.

Gotcha.

The mango is all around you all the time, just ripe for the tasting. Alls ya hafta do is take a bite.

In awareness terms: be aware. Pay attention to whatever happens to be happening around you, inside you. Relax and take in the big picture, the whole field of your awareness. Without judgement, division into good and bad.

Let awareness itself teach you about awareness.
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby Enlightened2B » Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:53 pm

Erik wrote:Spiritual teachers often say that my true nature is Awareness, and that that is never born and never dies, but there is something about that which I don’t understand. When the body goes into deep sleep or faints, awareness also disappears. I don’t see why the same wouldn’t happen when the body dies. My conclusion would be that awareness is dependent on the body, and that when the body goes into deep sleep, faints, or dies, awareness also disappears. That leads me to think that I am the body and that the body is aware. Therefore, when the body dies, I die.

I hope someone can enlighten me. Thanks


What is the one thing you know to be true in your experience? Is it not 'I AM'? Is it not Pure Being? Ever had those 'Samadhi' type experiences? When you are 'abiding' as your nature as Pure Being, is there any separation? Or is it just Being without thought content creating divides?

The question you are asking is a conceptual question that can never be answered from the limited human mind alone which is why I have come to realize that such questions, such as the nature of Consciousness are merely distractions to the awakening process. You ARE and I AM. Utilize your own experience to see the beauty of Pure Potentiality as Being expressing itself through the human vehicle known as Erik. Open your experience to embracing EVERYTHING. Realize that there is nothing in your experience that is not already you. Be honest with yourself and honest with your experience which means seeing through some of the old beliefs/conditioning that have been operating for decades. Embrace your fears and love them for they too are a part of you. Understand that the I AM is all there is in this existence. I AM is Existence itself.

NDE/OBE studies have helped tremendously to point me to a greater purpose here in our existence, in an understanding of how and why things are the way they are in an understanding that there is a purpose within the purposeless nature of our experience. That purpose is Universal Love. I would highly advise you to look into the links that WW posted above.

However, utilize the the study of non-physical realities as a complementary tool to the awakening process. Otherwise, it's easy to get caught up in more concepts.
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby Webwanderer » Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:07 pm

Enlightened2B wrote:However, utilize the the study of non-physical realities as a complementary tool to the awakening process. Otherwise, it's easy to get caught up in more concepts.

Wise advice E2B. Personal alignment with ones own true nature is the essence of awakening. Just knowing we are not the identification we 'think' we are is but a key step. The direct insight that comes from alignment is what is so often missed by those who do not explore the greater possibilities of their own true nature.

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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby epiphany55 » Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:10 pm

I think we need to differentiate what are clearly very authentic experiences from the explanation of what these experiences actually mean or prove. Two very different stages in the process of understanding. I know this irritates people and perhaps comes across as closed minded, but actually it's nothing more than saying "only go as far as what we know".

If we don't even know for certain what awareness is, then contemplating any additional dimensions of this unknown (or indeed unknowable) property is in the realm of infinite possibility and therefore completely open to even the most random, strangest explanations.

So with NDE's, which rightly continue to be studied seriously within the scientific community, only the experience itself can be observed and commented upon. What it means in terms of awareness living beyond the physical body is a huge leap beyond analysing the raw experience and a leap that requires we narrow down this infinite realm of possibility to something very specific.

What I will say is that, we know enough about the brain that we could selectively remove different parts and be able to predict with reasonable accuracy how it affects the awareness of the subject, to the point where they, as a physical being, have no awareness. The brain can be damaged to varying degrees that someone doesn't recognise faces, sounds, colours, spatial awareness, memories... all these things build up the picture of a unitary awareness. Yet somehow, when the entire brain has been damaged through oxygen starvation (i.e. during death), this awareness can float off the body fully intact, recognising faces, sounds, colours etc.

We have to keep an open mind, but we also have to accept the possibility that what we subjectively experience as a unitary awareness may just be another fragmented illusion of a highly evolved brain, given the aforementioned relationship between degrees of damage and apparent loss of awareness. Unfortunately, physical signs of awareness can never tell us anything about non-physical awareness.

Non-physical awareness remains in the realm of speculation, waiting to be discovered before it can be understood. No amount of NDE's will change that, unfortunately.
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby Webwanderer » Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:36 pm

epiphany55 wrote:So with NDE's, which rightly continue to be studied seriously within the scientific community, only the experience itself can be observed and commented upon. What it means in terms of awareness living beyond the physical body is a huge leap beyond analysing the raw experience and a leap that requires we narrow down this infinite realm of possibility to something very specific.

Feel free to let certain aspects of the scientific community tell you what to think and how to perceive the information that is readily available to all. I'll do my own research and reach my own conclusions - this I recommend to all. If one waits until some preferred scientists gives their stamp of approval, it could be a long wait indeed, as too often many of these 'trusted' scientists never overcome their own entrainment towards a material basis for consciousness.

Many scientists, especially those with a materialist bias, only study the physical attributes of the NDE reports. But the full range of consciousness is not only physical and does not lend itself to such limited study. There is plenty of science and plenty of scientists who suggest that NDE's are genuine non-physical experiences. These pioneer scientists however are often maligned and discounted by those who fear the exposure of their own invested belief structures.

Those who are genuinely interested in the nature of life and being will do their own investigation. It is far too important to be entrusted to another, regardless of credentials. Those who have done in-depth investigation tend to become much stronger as conscious beings, with a paradigm shift in their sense of life and expanded perspective that serves them well for the rest of their human experience. It is well worth the personal exploration.

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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby ashley72 » Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:38 pm

Erik,

You are dead right. Awareness is a brain function. When the brain stops functioning due to death... so does your awareness. Perception is general terms a mapping from primary domain to target domain, however the mapping is a very coarse grain macro level mapping which is only useful for the survival of our human species.

There are many analogies you can use to understand the human predicament. For example a computer is made of hardware like transistors that process the machine code, all the 01's using a formal system of logic (truth tables). Each layer the programming languages starts chunking more and more, this chunking process allow us to perceive things on a more global level of meaning which is more useful for a human level of understanding and interaction. But just because humans work on a macro level, doesn't mean their isn't other layers of meaning and cause & effect below our human level of perception. This is why science is so important it talks about meaning at the other levels, like the quatum level of atomic particles.
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby rachMiel » Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:46 pm

Can't say we don't have a broad range of opinions in dis here forum! :lol:
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby ashley72 » Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:57 pm

Erik,

Have you heard of in-attentional blindness test? It is a test that demonstrates our attention/conscious percepts have an upper limit or coverage. In other words, blind spots!

What this means is that when our attention/awareness is focused on one stimuli, there are other stimuli which we can now not detect.

This is a demonstration => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6qgoM89ekM

Human brains, just like computers have upper processing limits. The human brain is the most complicated system in the known Universe, but even the most complicated system has upper limits on processing power. This is why you have the well known saying... 2 heads are better than 1! :lol:

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