Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby Erik » Sun Nov 30, 2014 12:06 am

Thanks for all the replies everyone, and for confusing the hell out of me :lol: I am now more confused than I was before I asked the question, but I guess in spirituality that's a good thing.

The strangest thing of all is that when I had a satori experience, about 1.5 years ago, I immediately afterwards wrote down what I experienced, and among other things, I wrote that "during the experience it was absolutely clear and obvious to me that I cannot die, something that I had never been able to understand before the experience". So I actually knew the answer to my own question with absolute certainty, and now I'm back to not understanding..... But I remember that it wasn't an intellectual insight, like figuring something out. It was a pure knowing. Like when you see the color red, and you just know that it's red, even though you wouldn't be able to give an intellectual explanation to a blind man.

Sometimes I wonder if all of us on this forum are like a group of people that were born blind, discussing the existence of the color red. Discussing, philosophizing, conceptualizing, maybe it's all pointless. Maybe we just need to see it.
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sun Nov 30, 2014 12:27 am

Questions and responses in topics like this just tickle me funny - warm heartedly embracing the perspectives as I appreciate them all - like tasting the mangoes and appreciating the different juices making messy chins of all of us :D

It butts up against a more than 30 year awareness of what I'm now going to side with a once frowned upon and somewhat censored by the churches human scientist Teilhard de Chardin, and call it Omega Consciousness. Just as scientists have now discovered there is energetic resonance beyond 'flatline' that they don't know the properties of yet, they just now know that it exists - called Nu Complexes, my musing on their discovery that there is 'life' - not as we know it but energetic resonance - beyond where they previously thought life 'ended'. Beyond Nu Complexes, which may or may not be a sense of death with no consciousness, there is still - not biologically attached or dependent, but awareness that is totally free of biological parameters for 'life', that for me is what is spoken of or in my own nde, experienced - far beyond the capacity of physical awareness - hence 'Omega consciousness'.

Omega consciousness embraces all perspectives and all experiences, as has been mentioned in various levels of it, with honesty, with wonder, with appreciation, with equilibrium.

It sees what may not be seen by a particular limited perspective - for instance - I love what Rach says about truly living and appreciate awareness to the fullest of our awareness in body - it is truly wonderful when we switch off our individualised perspective and be at one with all the juices of all the mangoes and we do not need any extra ordinary experience to experience that.

I love what Webby says along the lines of Don MIguel Ruiz's Fifth Agreement - be sceptical, but listen (Ruiz by the way reports two prolonged nde / awareness experiences) so he says his agreements with awareness of the many perspectives and experiences of them.

I love what Epiphany says that what an experience is experienced as, and what that means for anything else are two totally different things - jumping to conclusions is unhelpful, but honestly and openly evaluating all the perspectives of a thing allow one to be fair minded, rational, even in the face of amazing awareness. And I do understand those who think it might be or become a 'distraction' to living, albeit from my perspective its been an enhancement in living in awareness, and I'm pleased that the openness to the sharing of others' experiences has opened up - without blindness or delusion - others like Webby and E2B.

I read with interest Ash's perspectives and love the logic he applies in linear processing. What we observe in any thing is replicated in everything, just at different levels of energetic frequency. Our in-attention blindness is real, and we can see it replicated in the many points of view we determine to be the parameters of our limitations.

In candid discussions with a respected and very balanced and logical nde scientist, the matter of scientific evidence being able to investigate elements of Omega Consciousness like transcendance of time and physicality - which is an evidenced outside of the normal limitations of awareness 'factor' in the likes of nde, obe, clair abilities etc can be evidenced in other sciences - I quote -
For example, physicists have discovered that they can study subatomic particles that are too small and too short-lived to see, if they shoot these particles through a liquid-filled “bubble chamber,” and then observe the bubbles the particles leave as they traverse a path through the liquid.

In a similar way, scientists may be able to study transcendence indirectly by observing the aftereffects (the “bubbles”) it leaves in experiencers’ lives.

I left the last sentence in there for Webby and others who have openly been sceptical but listened on nde accounts and found that not only does it have an impact on the life of the experiencer, but also on the investigator who has an open mind.

By realising that the limitations of the physical mind and physical life are not the alpha and the omega - physical life falls between alpha and omega and constantly moves along the ranges of awareness, some that have been studied and understood - alpha, beta, delta, theta etc ----- with the more sensitive equipment picking up Nu Complexes as a range of energetic resonance beyond what was thought to be 'the end' of energy moving in a body, it only stands to reason that some day the energetic resonance of those accessing or experiencing 'Omega consciousness' may well, probably accidentally like the Nu Complex discovery, be 'discovered' by the sciences.

One element of consciousness and transcendance in what I now term 'Omega Consciousness' is already coined in de Chardin's work - he thought the universe as a whole is unfeckling (is that even a word?...) itself from its own energetic limitations creating ever deeper and higher and wider and more complex conscious neural pathways if you like - as it is within it is without, as it is above it is below to infinity.

The element of transcending time and space it must be remembered that 'time' and 'space' are constructs of the human mind in order to create some measurable account and order of multi-dimensional experience. It's as artificially constructed and dictated about in terms of 'rules' and 'governance' as any other societally imposed structure of 'order' - religion, politic, law etc within civil society.

In an nde, or clair experience, time and space are not a limitation and individuation is not 'concrete' we are all feeding into and out of the flow of Omega Consciousness whether we are aware of it or not.

And one of the biggest post experience 'effects' that are most commonly reported and can be seen and validated as an effect of the experience of universal 'omega' consciousness, is this awareness that cannot be put back in the bottle.


It only matters about as much as when one didn't have a clue why people who 'fell in love' suddenly totally changed their perspectives, their behaviours, their ways of being - to one who's never fallen in love it can only look absolutely ridiculous and is not to be believed, love cannot be proven - until one falls in love - and then one 'gets it'.
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby rachMiel » Sun Nov 30, 2014 12:29 am

Erik wrote:Maybe we just need to see it.

How're gonna find out? (Not by talking about it, right?)
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby Erik » Sun Nov 30, 2014 12:42 am

rachMiel wrote:
Erik wrote:Maybe we just need to see it.

How're gonna find out? (Not by talking about it, right?)


That's a tough one. I listen to a lot of spiritual teachers, write a lot and do meditative self enquiry, and maybe someday something will click inside my head. Every once in a while I have moments of clarity, but I've never experienced a satori as clear as the one I experienced 1.5 years ago
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:39 am

Sometimes I wonder if all of us on this forum are like a group of people that were born blind, discussing the existence of the color red. Discussing, philosophizing, conceptualizing, maybe it's all pointless. Maybe we just need to see it.


:D And like your satori experience - describing it to another is nigh on impossible, so maybe it's not just 'seeing' but accepting that the 'knowing' as you did then is more real, and more powerful than any thinking can be.

How're gonna find out? (Not by talking about it, right?)

By being aware - sceptical but listening Rach :wink:

Erik, you or the mods can move the below to a different thread if you like - it's just falling in here --- but I have no preference personally, it's just following on many of the discussions that we've had about awareness outside of the 'accepted-biological' limitations and why when one opens oneself up to discovering who we are not, we realise so much more of what 'is'.

....

For those who have followed / been open to widening awareness -
I have a recently reached 'observance' - 'noticing'. I have no idea what it means yet and I appreciate it will mean different things to different people, but I offer it in the same sort of candid honesty that most would be used to from me.

My Dad has Alzheimers and is increasingly 'disappearing' for periods of time into a 'no thought' space in his mind.
It's both beautiful and devastating to observe. Beautiful in the moment, one cannot bemoan his lack of thought, he is at such peace, and when he returns to cognition he doesn't even know he's been away from it. Devastating only if one steps outside the moment of it - wishing his immense intellect to still be here, or fearing the day he won't come back out of it, or will come out of it and have no recognition of those he loves and who love him dearly, or when one overlays their own witnessing as if it is the experience he is having - as in a person who still has 'normal' cognitive function fears the loss of them, so overlaying those personal fears on the one who is having the experience and has no concept of the fears others are experiencing - projection I guess.

Without fear, without projection, without 'wishing' it different, it's just beautiful, he is coming to no harm and has no idea or concept of missing anything, he's either here and happy for the most part, or not here. It just 'is'.

It might seem a strange 'connection' to the discussion on eternal awareness and the limitations of the human body, but it's allowed me to answer questions and 'test' theories I didn't even know I had.

Because I have a naturally high empathic ability to recognise, interpret & translate energies even within others, across time, distance, 'dimensions' and species I kind of keep an aware, respectful 'boundary' most of the time. In clair and in the nde this 'boundary' just melts, as if it never existed. I'm able to intellectually distinguish between what is 'mine' or not physically, what is 'now' 'here' or not amid the distortions between dimensions, and evaluate information clinically and logically in order to sort 'fact' from 'fiction'.

With my Dad though, when he goes into this place in his mind there is literally nothing, or rather energy humming along so quietly that it's almost imperceptable even to my keen senses - it has no 'form'. It's quieter than sleep, stiller than still and it's incredibly different to energy of one who is 'dead' and communicating, or in a coma, or even trapped in a stroke affected non-communicative body where parts of the mind are still actively buzzing and 'forming' perceptions.

The bitch for me is - my Dad is the one that I would have been able to hold it up to, to have the possibilities and probabilities of the experience tested in meticulous and rigorous logical arguing and reasoning. When I asked him where does he go, and does he know when/that he goes, he laughed at the irony of it, and just shook his head with a smile - one needs to understand here - when I say that I don't mean that he's in a state of not knowing, he's totally conscious that he has no consciousness in that state, except that he doesn't know when he's in that state. He said he just 'disappears'. I agreed with him, he does, he does just 'disappear' - not physically-energetically, but mentally-energetically. He knows that he doesn't feel anything in that state so he can't even say how it feels, and that's exactly how it 'feels' to me.

Just as if I'm 'feeling' and/or translating across nature, I'm simultaneously aware of my own energy level at the same time as 'tuning into' his. It's ridiculously, paradoxically funny that I have to accept that when he is there there is no thing being experienced - and that in the cessation of thought, there is no consciousness in his experience, or by conduit in mine of it.

It's sublimely different to the energetic resonance 'beyond death' of the physical body - wherein testifiable, credible evidence of energetic awareness 'experience' is still occurring.

It's further ironic when one understands how 'tied to his intellect' this darling man was, and how much happier on one level he is, while on judgemental levels his capacity is rapidly decreasing, creating frustrations only when he's cognitive. Life is just too ridiculous for words.
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:58 am

OH!!!! I've found where the 'link' is :lol:

And... it's right at the beginning!!!

Spiritual teachers often say that my true nature is Awareness, and that that is never born and never dies, but there is something about that which I don’t understand.


When the body goes into deep sleep or faints, awareness also disappears. I don’t see why the same wouldn’t happen when the body dies. My conclusion would be that awareness is dependent on the body, and that when the body goes into deep sleep, faints, or dies, awareness also disappears. That leads me to think that I am the body and that the body is aware. Therefore, when the body dies, I die


When the body goes into deep sleep or faints it's the awareness of the external the outward sensory perception that stops, not the flow into - as in the 'all' (universal consciousness & perceiving) is still aware of the fainted/sleeping as a part of the whole.

So, when your body dies, it only dies to itself and to those who perceive it as 'you'.

Shit that's probably taking it all too far too quickly :lol:
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby rachMiel » Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:04 am

Erik wrote:Every once in a while I have moments of clarity, but I've never experienced a satori as clear as the one I experienced 1.5 years ago

It's fantastic that you saw things so clearly! But that was then. Now it's just a memory. And awareness has nothing to do with memory ... it's always new.

Your passion to learn is a blessing. Nurture it. Keep awaring!
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby rachMiel » Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:06 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:
How're gonna find out? (Not by talking about it, right?)

By being aware - sceptical but listening Rach :wink:

Neti neti! ;-)
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby Webwanderer » Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:08 am

Erik wrote:Thanks for all the replies everyone, and for confusing the hell out of me :lol: I am now more confused than I was before I asked the question, but I guess in spirituality that's a good thing.

Sometimes I wonder if all of us on this forum are like a group of people that were born blind, discussing the existence of the color red. Discussing, philosophizing, conceptualizing, maybe it's all pointless. Maybe we just need to see it.


Good points. Don't take anyone's word for what's true. Not mine, nor anyone else's. Do your own research and become your own best teacher. You'll be glad you did and you won't live by someone else's belief system.

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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby Erik » Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:19 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:When the body goes into deep sleep or faints it's the awareness of the external the outward sensory perception that stops, not the flow into - as in the 'all' (universal consciousness & perceiving) is still aware of the fainted/sleeping as a part of the whole.

So, when your body dies, it only dies to itself and to those who perceive it as 'you'.

Could you please expand on this? Because I think you hit the mark with that last sentence.


I think that that absolute certainty that I felt during my satori experience was this: Even though this body and all its sensory perceptions, thoughts and feelings will disappear with death, that is only a small part of what I am (what I am being the entirety of existence). What I am will continue to exist after the death of the body, and has always existed before the birth of the body.

I'll try to explain it with an analogy from the egoïc perspective (which most of us happen to find ourselves in): When you go to bed in the evening you know that soon you will fall into deep sleep, and that during that period all your sensory perceptions, thoughts and feelings will disappear. You know that in a certain way you will be completely gone (no sensory perceptions, thoughts and feelings), but at the same time you know that what you really are, the real substance of you, will still be there, and so there is no fear, problems, or worries.

Maybe death is for the enlightened person like deep sleep is for the unenlightened person. A knowing that even though sensory perceptions, thoughts and feelings will all disappear, that which the person takes himself to be will continue to exist. After falling into deep sleep, that which the unenlightened person takes himself to be (body-mind) will continue to exists, and the unenlightened person knows that, so there is no problem. After death, that which the enlightened person takes himself to be (existence) will continue to exist, and the enlightened person knows that, so there is no problem.
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby Phil2 » Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:23 am

rachMiel wrote:Can't say we don't have a broad range of opinions in dis here forum! :lol:


Yes, which tends to prove that asking the question is definitely more important than all the answers we receive or give ... let us keep this question 'open' and not 'jump to conclusions' ...

:lol:
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby Phil2 » Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:30 am

Erik wrote: When the body goes into deep sleep or faints, awareness also disappears.


I think you make a mistake here or at least an unproved assumption, you say "awareness disappears" because you cannot remember it, there is no memory of pure awareness ... because pure awareness cannot be 'memorized', it can only 'happen' in the present moment ... there is nothing to be 'memorized' in fact ...

You can approach a mental state very near to deep sleep while in deep meditation ... this state is very similar to deep sleep, however awareness remains and some memory of it is kept ... but it remains undescribable ... except a great peace and silence ... very much like when you switch off a noisy television ... everything disappears, total extinction ...
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby Rob X » Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:16 pm

Erik wrote:I think that that absolute certainty that I felt during my satori experience was this: Even though this body and all its sensory perceptions, thoughts and feelings will disappear with death, that is only a small part of what I am (what I am being the entirety of existence). What I am will continue to exist after the death of the body, and has always existed before the birth of the body.


Great stuff Erik. For me this is spot on and aligns with my own satori experiences. (I don't claim to be an 'enlightened person' but I'm certain that at times I glimpse existence from the enlightened perspective (so to speak.) Actually I'm not even convinced that there are such things as enlightened persons only enlightened seeing which can be obscured by mind stuff - but hey that's another topic entirely. :))

Sitting in front of computer screens it can be very hard to get a sense of this - but I often find that when I am outdoors where nature's energetic buzzing momentum is obvious, I get an overwhelming sense of the One Life behind things. But this One Life is beyond analysis. If we have to think about it we might envisage Life/the Whole as being a kind of entity or life-form in itself (but don't take this too literally since Life/Existence is not a thing.) Even right now as you read this, this very reading/thinking is the play of the energetic happening of Existence or Life itself.

So right now Life is expressing as this transient human expression - and this expression acts as a sort of window in which Life glimpses itself in a particular way. But this particular expression will (in my view) certainly dissolve at death - and of course awareness/perception/thought from a particular perspective at a particular point in time will cease to be. But the 'good news' is that Life is vaster, deeper, richer and infinitely more ineffable and creative than any transient perspective (and limited understanding) that it gives rise to.

And although the above cannot be established beyond doubt, its recognition feels a whole lot more obvious and natural than any other models of reality that I have been conditioned to accept.
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby epiphany55 » Sun Nov 30, 2014 5:52 pm

Webwanderer wrote:Those who are genuinely interested in the nature of life and being will do their own investigation. It is far too important to be entrusted to another, regardless of credentials. Those who have done in-depth investigation tend to become much stronger as conscious beings, with a paradigm shift in their sense of life and expanded perspective that serves them well for the rest of their human experience. It is well worth the personal exploration.


I agree people should do their own investigation, although forgive my cynicism but people will always subconsciously involve existing ideas into their enquiries. Subjective bias sticks out like a sore thumb in science. There may be institutional or theoretical bias, but that's why we should continue to invite competing theories into the field. As I mentioned in a previous post, it takes decades for new theories to become established, and at first they may indeed be subject to widespread ridicule. But if history is anything to go by, there's every reason to be optimistic that science will gradually weed out dogma and bias.

Going back to subjective bias, there is the raw experience (i.e. a NDE), but as soon as we reflect upon it and start to contemplate what it means, that's when our imagination takes over, since that's where the empirical ends. I don't see how this is controversial.

If the experience changes you in a positive way, then who cares about what it means anyway? Just live the experience. What should people with negative, hellish experiences believe, however? It's all very precarious once we move beyond the subjective experience into subjective analysis. When a Christian experiences a NDE, for example, does this not simply reaffirm their existing beliefs? The embracing light they see becomes Jesus, rather than just a light. The bliss and infinite love they experience becomes the love of their God, not just love.

In a broader, non-religion specific sense, the experience of being outside the body supposedly marks the beginning of an after life, rather than just an OBE. But these people eventually "return" to the body, so how can the OBE necessarily prove it's the beginning of a non-physical afterlife?

The question for me is how we separate our conditioned beliefs from our experiences. Maybe we can find agreement on being careful not to not label everything we experience, whether in life or near death.
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby ashley72 » Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:27 pm

Satori is a Zen concept. All Zen tries to demonstrate is that words, language, concepts, categories & "reason" do not capture the true essence of something (like say the colour red).

Kurt Godel Incompleteness theorem already has formally established that no formal system of logic is complete and consistent.... because you can never complete a system of logic...It is always subject to concepts like infinity and self reference or loopiness.

Therefore, any system will always have unreachable truths & falsehoods...including Zen! In other words, it's impossible for any system including Zen to formalise truth. :lol:

What we have learnt from both Zen & Kurt Godel is that for any formal system of reasoning to be both consistent & complete it must account for hierarchal statements built from multiple contexts, multiple self-references, multiple-Points of View - or it will remain incomplete.

Obviously the Universe contains multiple contexts, multiple self-references & multiple-points of view.... a bit like this forum!!!!!! :lol:

What we know about mapping the phyiscal domain to the target domain (or abstract layer)... When we go from one foundation language be it binary to higher languahes like ascii, Java or whatever. Is all we doing is really chunking or grouping ideas into assemblies of the foundation ones and abstracting different multiple points of view & contexts which inherently reference back to one another. So all the complexities we see in the Universe are all derived by computations of rotations or spins of fluid dynamics at the observable level which can be represented formally as 0,1's.

But the most interesting phenomena about the Universe is that cause & effect isn't just occuring from bottom-up it also appears to occur also from the top-down.
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