Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby rachMiel » Sun Nov 30, 2014 10:31 pm

ashley72 wrote:... cause & effect isn't just occuring from bottom-up it also appears to occur also from the top-down.

How might understanding this bidirectional (top-down, bottom-up) aspect of causality (and emergence) be beneficial for awakening?
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby xpansion » Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:16 am

Erik wrote:Spiritual teachers often say that my true nature is Awareness, and that that is never born and never dies, but there is something about that which I don’t understand. When the body goes into deep sleep or faints, awareness also disappears. I don’t see why the same wouldn’t happen when the body dies. My conclusion would be that awareness is dependent on the body, and that when the body goes into deep sleep, faints, or dies, awareness also disappears. That leads me to think that I am the body and that the body is aware. Therefore, when the body dies, I die.

I hope someone can enlighten me. Thanks


I see it like this. Awareness or consciousness is kind of like space. Its an infinite stillness, it is not a thing, its "no thing" Every thing (all form) is part of it and is unfolding within it. Currently you are aware of your body. When you "die" your body will undergo a process of metamorphosis. Every cell, atom, molecule, quark etc will still exist but in a different form as part of the earth and atmosphere however the awareness of that body and mind as it currently is will no longer exist but awareness itself will still exist. Awareness is not a thing, it cannot "die". It just is, always has been and always will be. We are like ripples and the ocean is like awareness. We are like stars and space is like awareness, stars are born and then they fade and die but space is still there.

About 20 years ago I was meditating at a beach and I had an experience that I won't ever forget. The only way I can describe it is that it felt like I suddenly became one with everything. I was on a high for days. It was a time in my life when I was struggling with some big and difficult changes. I have never felt this since but I see it as a tiny glimpse of the true nature of reality.
A friend of mine recently had a cardiac arrest and apparently had a NDE. After 3 week in intensive care he recovered. He said to me "dying was kind of nice"!! I think that as much as life is amazing and I want to experience more of it dying will probably be a kind of release and relief.
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby Phil2 » Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:26 am

xpansion wrote:
I see it like this. Awareness or consciousness is kind of like space. Its an infinite stillness, it is not a thing, its "no thing" Every thing (all form) is part of it and is unfolding within it. Currently you are aware of your body. When you "die" your body will undergo a process of metamorphosis. Every cell, atom, molecule, quark etc will still exist but in a different form as part of the earth and atmosphere however the awareness of that body and mind as it currently is will no longer exist but awareness itself will still exist. Awareness is not a thing, it cannot "die". It just is, always has been and always will be. We are like ripples and the ocean is like awareness. We are like stars and space is like awareness, stars are born and then they fade and die but space is still there.



I fully agree with what is said above XP ... however I see a contradiction with something you said earlier in another discussion and I quote here:

xpansion wrote:The answer to all 3 questions is because I'm not Jesus. Im a human being like everyone else struggling to find meaning and purpose in life and grappling with the day to day vissisitudes that come my way. Like everyone I want to have friends because I want to belong. Its a normal human experience. We are social creatures. ... If people are rude, disrespectful or abusive of course I will defend myself because I'm not a doormat.


How can we be at the same time the infinite space (of awareness) and 'social creatures' ?

And btw, do the stars in space fight the one against the others ? ... except maybe in Hollywood ...

:lol:

It seems you have reached some 'intellectual' understanding XP ... still not fully 'realized' it in your real practical life ... you are still creating problems and conflicts with 'what is' ...
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:11 pm

Erik wrote:
smiileyjen101 wrote:
When the body goes into deep sleep or faints it's the awareness of the external the outward sensory perception that stops, not the flow into - as in the 'all' (universal consciousness & perceiving) is still aware of the fainted/sleeping as a part of the whole.

So, when your body dies, it only dies to itself and to those who perceive it as 'you'.


Could you please expand on this? Because I think you hit the mark with that last sentence.

I think that that absolute certainty that I felt during my satori experience was this: Even though this body and all its sensory perceptions, thoughts and feelings will disappear with death, that is only a small part of what I am (what I am being the entirety of existence). What I am will continue to exist after the death of the body, and has always existed before the birth of the body.


Yes!!

and in parts no.. or maybe :wink: Yes to the before, during and after continuing awareness.
Less sure about the all sensory perception, thoughts and feelings disappearing - it's just a different experience of it without physical limitations - one can (it seems to me) still kind of hone in on elements of 'experience', albeit at different frequencies of experience and of awareness.

EG: only when my attention was directed to notice 'temperature' (as in a nurse was trying to warm my cold, lifeless body and saying it was soooo cold and I noticed that I (me, the awareness) was not cold at all, in fact I was the perfect equilibrium of all possible temperatures) - so it wasn't that I didn't have the experience of temperature, it's more that I recognised that in body I / we experience individual aspects of it as if in isolation to all potential temperature and we 'measure' and 'judge' that in relativity. Whereas in this other awareness, I was in perfect balance as is the nature of equilibrium - not excising parts of itself, but perfectly blending all parts of itself, in terms of temperature I was the perfect blending of all possible temperatures - it was just 'perfect', not 'not' or nothing, but 'all'.

So even sensory perception and experience and expression does not then disappear - and to really understand that one would have to move more into empathic clair ability arenas. The energy that enlivens the body does not die, it just changes form and has a far wider field of play in awareness of all potentials.

What appears to be undying is the absolute 'we are' (collectively everything) universal awareness and to varying degrees interaction within awareness universally or 'individually', albeit outside of physical life not in a 'physical' time or space delineated way. Outside of this form It's always 'now' and it's always 'here' all things are always and all ways known here and now - which is the same in a satori experience or any present moment awareness that- that is the perfection that one feels - the equilibrium awareness.

What is experienced in 'the light' for want of a better term, is unshackled awareness, but still able to be honed in upon and experienced in its parts ----- like all the knowledge may be in a library, or for Ash in a computer network, and it is within possibility to access it all, this is the 'all knowing' sense, and it is real in unmanifest form there is no thing we do not know, there is no thing not known - all potentiality is known, but in order to be known intimately by its parts in the whole, cause & effect it's slowed down, given form - which physicists already know - and is able to be 'digested/experienced' more selectively, more tangibly by its parts - experienced. All experiences include the essence of awareness that knows universally and eternally, and eternally always knows universally.

One of my favourite musings from an nder was from Anita Moorjani who described this 'all knowing' access/awareness like being in a warehouse where once you had a torch with which to direct your 'light', your attention in 'streams' or 'beams' of light for the most part totally oblivious of what was under, within, around, above, feeding into and out of that particular experience or thing that you were shining your torch on; and then, someone turns all the lights on and you can see under and over and on and within everything on every shelf and it is huuuuuggggggeeeee ---- you didn't even know how big the warehouse was before --- it's huuuuuuggggeeeee and it's amazing, and every speck of dust has its place and every beam of light has its place and every single thing has its place - and the place is 'equilibrium' of all things. The 'warehouse' for me, is all and everything that makes up the continual ever changing but ever accommodated equilibrium.

Within and before and after a 'body'. A body like all things is just a combination of elements of energy moving at different frequencies - my big toe or even the nail on it, is no more or less important a combination of energies in motion than the energy in motion functioning in my brain - not really, it's all a part of the equilibrium.

And Ash is right it is all just like 0 and 1 a really simple basic program of action and reaction - in various densities / expressions of awareness, all incredibly off-shooting and entangled on far more dimensions that we generally recognise in simple action - reaction awareness.

It matters that / if you blink your eye now, or not. The possibility of it is infinitely 'allowable' and it has infinite implications for all else, and at the same time it matters not that /if you blink your eye now or not - its always in perfect equilibrium embracing all possible potentials.

The things about the physical body is probably better explained in the topics in the Beyond the Physical section.
The attachment to, or concerns over the body are .... relatively important, they are the vehicles for the energy to take this form, this density and access these experiences and contribute to the all - however or whatever, always in equilibrium in the widest sense, but able to be experienced in degrees and limited perspectives, just like degrees of temperature are.

I have a healthy regard and respect for my body, and the bodies of others and I am immensely grateful for the 'limited' experiences that it affords me - there's something kind of wonderful about the 'degrees'. But once the energy leaves the body, the body is just a shell, just an inanimate shell - the energy lives on without the body.

So the sentence
So, when your body dies, it only dies to itself and to those who perceive it as 'you'.

It's only the physical, tangible that dies, becomes inactive. All else remains active - and enhanced in many ways, albeit in equilibrium rather than in the degrees - (eat ice cream now!!! :D ) Be aware and grateful for the experience of the degrees and the limitations in physicality - they're not permanent.
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby epiphany55 » Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:28 pm

xpansion wrote:When you "die" your body will undergo a process of metamorphosis. Every cell, atom, molecule, quark etc will still exist but in a different form as part of the earth and atmosphere however the awareness of that body and mind as it currently is will no longer exist but awareness itself will still exist. Awareness is not a thing, it cannot "die". It just is, always has been and always will be. We are like ripples and the ocean is like awareness. We are like stars and space is like awareness, stars are born and then they fade and die but space is still there.


It is of course possible that the universe doesn't even "know" we are here, or even "know" itself - it just is.

We have assigned an unseen, unknowable quality (at least by the standards of our limited human brains) - awareness, which has always been a mystery to us - to a process that could have manifested blindly in exactly the same way. We humans always have to have an explanation for the infinitely mysterious. We can't just accept that the very quality that defines our being might only be significant to us because it is by the nature of its emergence our only way of defining it.

So the universe is either blind, or it knows itself. Beyond life with complex, evolved brain structures, there is nothing in this universe (that we know of) that necessitates or even implies awareness underlying its function. That is something WE ascribe to it using the same property that defines our existence.

One may have the experience of feeling one with the universe. That is exactly what it is - an experience. Its truth is purely subjective. As soon as you start to extrapolate its meaning to everything outside your head, you are projecting what your mind thinks of your profound experience. The experience itself may be pure, but your mind is not. If you can find a way to live the experience as it is and not pollute it with your conditioned mind, then the mystery won't need to be solved.

Awareness is by no means a pre-requisite property of this universe. This need to ascribe the property of awareness to the very fabric of the universe implies a scepticism with the ability of blind forces to create complexity. Scepticism is healthy, but it isn't a gaping hole that needs to be filled with conjecture.
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby Webwanderer » Mon Dec 01, 2014 8:01 pm

epiphany55 wrote:One may have the experience of feeling one with the universe. That is exactly what it is - an experience. Its truth is purely subjective. As soon as you start to extrapolate its meaning to everything outside your head, you are projecting what your mind thinks of your profound experience. The experience itself may be pure, but your mind is not. If you can find a way to live the experience as it is and not pollute it with your conditioned mind, then the mystery won't need to be solved.

Is this not an expression of a conditioned mind? A mind that is invested in specific limitations of what is possible? You speak of the universe as if the point of the discussion was that of the universe being the origin of consciousness rather than being a grand manifestation of a Consciousness that flows through the universe into and through all it's components unique to their individualized purpose.

You wrote: "So the universe is either blind, or it knows itself."

This specifically limits the possibilities to either/or by your definition. But, as you acknowledge you don't know the answer to this, you also can't know if there are yet greater, more inclusive possibilities of the nature of being. Consider this more inclusive possibility: consciousness does not have a physical origin. It's the physical that has its origin in consciousness. The science of quantum nature certainly bears this out. Accordingly, there is no such thing as physical as we perceive it. There is only vibrating energy that gives the appearance of solidity. Appearance to what? To consciousness - that which we all are.

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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby epiphany55 » Mon Dec 01, 2014 8:56 pm

Webwanderer wrote:[b]Accordingly, there is no such thing as physical as we perceive it. There is only vibrating energy that gives the appearance of solidity. Appearance to what? To consciousness - that which we all are.


Yes, appearance to the very beings that are questioning the phenomena around them. How does it follow that the very property that allows things to appear to our being must necessarily permeate ALL beings that appear in our subjective awareness?

That assumption begins with complexity and works backwards. The problem with that is reflected in the point you made about arbitrary limitation. If you are to superimpose a fundamental complexity on to everything, then why stop at permeant consciousness? What is so special about consciousness that it must be THE defining manifestation of all phenomena of which we evolved mammals happen to be aware? I'll take permeant consciousness and raise you Matrix style computer simulation. I'm not trying to be facetious - if we begin with complexity and remove all arbitrary limitations, then we may as well begin where infinite possibility "ends".
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby xpansion » Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:26 pm

Phil2 wrote:
xpansion wrote:
I see it like this. Awareness or consciousness is kind of like space. Its an infinite stillness, it is not a thing, its "no thing" Every thing (all form) is part of it and is unfolding within it. Currently you are aware of your body. When you "die" your body will undergo a process of metamorphosis. Every cell, atom, molecule, quark etc will still exist but in a different form as part of the earth and atmosphere however the awareness of that body and mind as it currently is will no longer exist but awareness itself will still exist. Awareness is not a thing, it cannot "die". It just is, always has been and always will be. We are like ripples and the ocean is like awareness. We are like stars and space is like awareness, stars are born and then they fade and die but space is still there.



I fully agree with what is said above XP ... however I see a contradiction with something you said earlier in another discussion and I quote here:

xpansion wrote:The answer to all 3 questions is because I'm not Jesus. Im a human being like everyone else struggling to find meaning and purpose in life and grappling with the day to day vissisitudes that come my way. Like everyone I want to have friends because I want to belong. Its a normal human experience. We are social creatures. ... If people are rude, disrespectful or abusive of course I will defend myself because I'm not a doormat.


How can we be at the same time the infinite space (of awareness) and 'social creatures' ?

And btw, do the stars in space fight the one against the others ? ... except maybe in Hollywood ...

:lol:

It seems you have reached some 'intellectual' understanding XP ... still not fully 'realized' it in your real practical life ... you are still creating problems and conflicts with 'what is' ...


I have never claimed to be an enlightened sage, I'm merely offering my own personal insights of the moment. Sometimes I feel more awakened than other times. Big deal. That quote is a previous moment and that is what came up in that moment. Perhaps the fact that you seem to need to keep pointing this out in others says more about you than them.
Last edited by xpansion on Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby Webwanderer » Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:27 pm

epiphany55 wrote:Yes, appearance to the very beings that are questioning the phenomena around them.

Not very many question the appearance. Most take it at face value. As an experience of course it is real, but then so too is all experience real. Understand, I am not saying the phenomena of the experience is real, I'm saying the experience of the phenomena is.

How does it follow that the very property that allows things to appear to our being must necessarily permeate ALL beings that appear in our subjective awareness?

Because all appearance has its basis in vibration. All is internal to awareness even though we may perceive it, and be conscious of it, as external by virtue of a defined/chosen perspective.

What is so special about consciousness that it must be THE defining manifestation of all phenomena of which we evolved mammals happen to be aware?

This is a false premise. We are not evolved mammals. These bodily forms 'may' be, but these forms are just a vehicle for a unique living perspective. In order for 'evolved mammals' concept to be true, the brain would have to be the origin of 'evolved' animal consciousness. That after all, would be the evolution that brought a higher sense of self over animal instinct and drive.

In that the evidence of NDE/TDE shows that conscious self-awareness exists prior to the birth of the body, then the evolution of mammals is mostly irrelevant to the true nature of conscious being. As a soul consciousness the human experience is but an extension into physical form to explore this unique perspective of being.

I'm not trying to be facetious - if we begin with complexity and remove all arbitrary limitations, then we may as well begin where infinite possibility "ends"

I don't see it as beginning with complexity. Quite the opposite. It begins with simplicity and moves toward complexity as the exploration of the possible unfolds. What are the limits of uniqueness? Are there any? Or is the possible infinite given the right conditions? The physical universe and the human experience is just one possibility. One that we chose to explore through experience. When one can find the necessary clarity, it's quite a fun ride.

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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:43 pm

epiphany55 said:

...if we begin with complexity and remove all arbitrary limitations, then we may as well begin where infinite possibility "ends".



It's upside down Mr Squiggle - there is only 'perception' of any 'beginning' or 'end' when one separates out elements of the eternal equilibrium by attention. :wink:

epiphany55 wrote:
One may have the experience of feeling one with the universe. That is exactly what it is - an experience. Its truth is purely subjective. As soon as you start to extrapolate its meaning to everything outside your head, you are projecting what your mind thinks of your profound experience. The experience itself may be pure, but your mind is not. If you can find a way to live the experience as it is and not pollute it with your conditioned mind, then the mystery won't need to be solved.

A truth is not subjective until one overlays, as you rightly say, subjective meaning - that's when we split parts of it out of itself and measure and name the elements of it. It need not be malevolent or unconscious to do so though.

What can also occur is as that nde scientist I quoted earlier said of the movement of energies even too small and short-lived to measure, one can recognise the changes in and through the path of energy movement and know that change has occurred. It's the after-effect that denotes the movement as 'true', or 'real'. Not for anything in and of itself, but for the minute or magnificent change that occurs to anything that is touched by it - cause & effect in awareness.

In its purity it is equilibrium of all parts that are only descriptively and decidedly separated out in order to describe, either to oneself, or to others.

When one first falls in love, it's crazy and heady and awash with awareness of energies moving in response to other energies emotionally and chaotically, as we try to explain the experience. Eventually it all settles down - not because its not still happening, but because we are now more comfortable with the happening and the semblance of cause and effect and changes that are occurring within, around and because of it.

Of course the 'mystery' is not a mystery at all. But our clunky limited brains are much slower to understand the tensions and releases of energy in motion. Our perspectives are limited by our awareness, capacity and willingness to embrace the unlimited potentials that always are in equilibrium in the widest sense, but are noticed, measured and absorbed in our understanding in their parts, as filtered by our senses.

What is outside of our cognitive senses is all the rest of the elements that make up the whole, that which is always there, and only sometimes recognised or acknowledged. Walk around a warehouse with a torch, or with all the lights on... no choice is wrong, it just brings a different experience.
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby ClarityofMoment » Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:13 pm

Awareness is an ever present, continous experience. You are always aware, but you are not always aware of your body. Awareness is continuous, it has no gaps, so how could Awareness be a byproduct of something that is intermittent such as the mind-body? Awareness is Aware of itself, simply by Being itself.
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby ClarityofMoment » Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:17 pm

Awareness, is an ever-present, continuous experience, it has no gaps. That is most people's experience, as if you weren't "Aware" then what was there to witness the coming and going of Awareness.

Awareness, based off experience, is ever present and continuous, it has no gaps. However, you are not always "Aware" of your body, the experience of the body comes and goes, same with mind(thought), the body-mind are intermittent experiences, so how could Awareness (ever-present, continous, no gaps) be a byproduct of something that is intermittent (mind-body)?
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby epiphany55 » Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:44 pm

ClarityofMoment wrote:Awareness, based off experience, is ever present and continuous, it has no gaps. However, you are not always "Aware" of your body, the experience of the body comes and goes, same with mind(thought), the body-mind are intermittent experiences, so how could Awareness (ever-present, continous, no gaps) be a byproduct of something that is intermittent (mind-body)?


Because brain damage victims have shown us that different aspects of awareness can be shut down, depending on which area of the brain has been damaged. The evidence suggests that our awareness is intrinsically linked to the function of our brains.

The sense of a perpetual, unitary state of awareness, moving through space and time, is probably an illusion - the whole being a product of its parts and ever more convincing as a unitary entity because those of our ancestors who had a more unified sense of awareness were more likely to survive and therefore reproduce.

You are right in that you are not always aware of your body, but you are also not always aware of your awareness. There are many gaps, you're just not aware of them because if you were they wouldn't be gaps!
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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby Webwanderer » Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:42 am

epiphany55 wrote:The sense of a perpetual, unitary state of awareness, moving through space and time, is probably an illusion

There is more to awareness than you suggest. When was the last time you told your heart to beat faster when you increased your exercise? When did you last tell your blood to form a scab and repair a cut? Were you aware of the processes at all? Yet some part of you was aware enough, outside/beyond consciousness, to detect a need for acting on a set of circumstances that needed addressing. There are millions of such aware actions occurring within our bodies every day. Awareness, even at the human level of perspective, is more than consciousness.

Every living thing has an aware faculty that maintains their living conditions, that senses when there is a need for specific actions for specific events. Awareness it would seem is equally on the watch when the body can no longer maintain a conscious presence within the body and withdraws. The question is, does awareness originate in the body, or does it simply work within it from a larger context?

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Re: Doesn't Awareness die with the body?

Postby epiphany55 » Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:34 am

WW, I'm tempted to say this is a case of semantics. You call the body's ability to heal as awareness. I just see it as a chemical reaction - cause and effect on a highly evolved and complex level. It appears to be a force of motion, a domino effect, that requires no awareness. We don't consider the action of a tree falling because its structural integrity fails to be born from awareness, so why would we consider chemical reactions within the body, governed by the same physical laws, to be any different? The end result may imply more complexity or an innate intelligence, but the process at every stage can be seen to be governed by exactly the same laws of parsimony - a path of least resistance.

Awareness has to be distinguished from actions that can be initiated through blind momentum, otherwise what do we have to separate qualia, the subjective feeling of being something, from things that simply are something?
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