Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby smiileyjen101 » Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:32 am

Danny said
The problem that I'm facing right now is I can hardly tell whether my beliefs are true or false at times. I don't understand how to use my thinking mind in order to verify the validity of what it is that I'm reading or observing.

Its also a fact that my observations are highly limited. Just because I cannot see cells, atoms, particles, and micro organisms does that mean they do not exist? Just because I look at a girl and think she is the most beautiful thing on the planet does that really make her beautiful?

I'm going to be graduating high school pretty soon and it's absolutely ridiculous how little I understand about the world. Although I am able to observe my environment with much more awareness than ever before, I am unable to explain the causes which underlie what I'm perceiving.


Forgive me and bless you Danny ---- that you are even 'thinking' or articulating at all about this stuff while still in high school --- - only goes to show the amazing leaps in the awareness in the human race in just a few short decades!

May I share some aged wisdom born of experience with you?

Firstly, try to 'reframe' the notion of 'problems' into 'noticing' .... I'm noticing at the moment that from this perspective, this point of viewing I can see this, but realise that I'm not seeing the bigger picture.

This is not a 'problem' this is life in body :D and it comes with very distinct benefits.

Secondly, Beliefs are likely to be neither (all) true, or (all) false - so be okay with that - all beliefs are solidified perspectives of (elements of) a thing.

There are very few universal truths and some folks would still argue about them too. :wink:

Thirdly, don't use your thinking mind to 'validate' - use your thinking mind to investigate by all means, it's really great for that bit - but use awareness of energetic harmony to 'validate' in equilibrium.

Eg: if you are feeling sad 'for' someone, rather than feeling sorrow 'with' someone - there is no harmony / balance / equilibrium in it, therefore 'something' must be missing from your awareness. You don't need to drive yourself nuts trying to figure out 'what' that is, just accept 'that' that is and therefore do not put too much energy into those thoughts / feelings.

Life will unfold itself to you.

EG:
A case like this makes me feel sad for them. Wouldn't you feel the same way?

I'm not concerned with my own fate. In fact, I have it quite easy in comparison to the rest of the world.

So wouldn't a cute little ego be saying look at them, poor souls (pity), look at me, lucky, lucky me. (pride)

No thing 'wrong' with this, it just isn't the 'whole' truth is it?

Sit with it until you feel okay with it rather than judging it sad - sit with it as you would a best friend - who you love anyway, accepting the good, the bad, the ugly and the beautiful - as just is.
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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby dannydawiz » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:23 pm

Hello Jen. I can give credit to most of what I know about these things to all the books I read and the vast amount of information thats available to me on the web. I wouldn't know any of this if it weren't for the revolution of the information age you could say. I suppose you could also attribute my depression to motivating me to find things out in the first place.

I like your perspective Jen. I've noticed from my experience that most "problems" that we have in our heads aren't nearly as troubling as we make them out to be.

What I've been noticing recently however is that I cannot find an answer to the question why? Not in the sense of what caused this to happen, but in the sense of for what reason? My mind is always looking for a reason to do things. When it is unable to find a reason behind the doing it''s like suddenly I don't want to do it anymore.

They all say don't live life as a meanings to an end. However... how is this really possible? I breathe in order to live do I not? I eat in order to live do I not? Sure I can breathe without a reason. I can walk without a reason. I can eat without a reason. Is this really how I am to live though? A life without a reason? A life of doing things without any sort of purpose?

In a way I feel kinda jealous of all the people who aren't awakened. At least they get to wake up every morning with something to aim for. With a purpose by which to devote their actions to. Sure they are living in the unconsciousness of there own thoughts but at least they can live a life of reason...

Once "reason" comes into what I am doing I can no longer do for the sake of itself. However, without a "reason" behind my doing I don't want to do anything in the first place...

This is what I am currently thinking. :(
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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:42 am

What I've been noticing recently however is that I cannot find an answer to the question why? Not in the sense of what caused this to happen, but in the sense of for what reason? My mind is always looking for a reason to do things. When it is unable to find a reason behind the doing it''s like suddenly I don't want to do it anymore.


You are absolutely right that your mind is looking for a reason - and yet you breathe in and out anyway :wink: you get out of bed anyway.

The balance to 'why' (the mind's question) is 'why not?'

So, why / why not?

It is what it is - and then you might (or not) come back to what is it? It is what it is - represented in my awareness by my perspective.

Answers are not static, and rarely can they be tied down, so the quality and the truth and the intention of the question becomes fit to consider.

Why even ask? Why not? :wink:

Then you are only living in this moment, yes this moment may be building on / growing out of moments passed and contributing towards moments in the future - that's what growth is, and it just is because it (already) is. This individual experience, perspective of this unique moment can be uppermost in our awareness, and we don't even have to 'think' about it. We can if we choose, we can choose to be aware of the quality of and the changes in our breathing - in a moment; we can choose to be aware of eating - as a nourishment, as a sensual experience, as an exchange of energies, as a part of all eternity, or not even at all as you noticed - all depending on where / how our awareness is flowing in our mind's attention or not.

Go back again to the section in A New Earth about Conscious Doing - awareness of acceptance, enjoyment and enthusiasm - all these states are at one in/with the present moment.

You too can wake up in the morning with something to aim for - as ET says with awareness of enthusiasm one is just more like the arrow flying towards the target (yeeeehaaa!!!) no matter where or how the arrow flies we accept that which we cannot change about the 'flight path', and we pour joy into the experiences of the moments on the flight. Then we are not forsaking the journey for the destination.
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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sun Dec 28, 2014 2:20 am

Two wise men :D


Once you develop confidence in your own ability, you’ll be able to make a real contribution to creating a better world. Self-confidence is very important. Not in the sense of blind pride, but as a realistic awareness of what you can do. As human beings we can transform ourselves by our good qualities and reducing our faults. Our intelligence enables us to judge what is good from what is harmful.
Dalai Lama



'' “Your task is not to seek for love but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.” ~ Rumi
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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby Phil2 » Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:04 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:
Our intelligence enables us to judge what is good from what is harmful.
Dalai Lama



Well the word 'judge' is maybe not the most appropriate, 'judgement' is something 'intellectual', coming from mind (which is conditioned and might 'distort' reality) ... personally I would prefer a statement saying that intelligence allows us to 'feel' (or 'see' or 'discern') what is good from what is harmfull ... intelligence is about discernment, not judgement ...

Maybe a problem of 'translation' of what the Dalai Lama meant ?

:?:
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby KathleenBrugger » Sun Dec 28, 2014 7:37 pm

dannydawiz wrote:Hello Jen. I can give credit to most of what I know about these things to all the books I read and the vast amount of information thats available to me on the web. I wouldn't know any of this if it weren't for the revolution of the information age you could say. I suppose you could also attribute my depression to motivating me to find things out in the first place.

I like your perspective Jen. I've noticed from my experience that most "problems" that we have in our heads aren't nearly as troubling as we make them out to be.

What I've been noticing recently however is that I cannot find an answer to the question why? Not in the sense of what caused this to happen, but in the sense of for what reason? My mind is always looking for a reason to do things. When it is unable to find a reason behind the doing it''s like suddenly I don't want to do it anymore.

They all say don't live life as a meanings to an end. However... how is this really possible? I breathe in order to live do I not? I eat in order to live do I not? Sure I can breathe without a reason. I can walk without a reason. I can eat without a reason. Is this really how I am to live though? A life without a reason? A life of doing things without any sort of purpose?

In a way I feel kinda jealous of all the people who aren't awakened. At least they get to wake up every morning with something to aim for. With a purpose by which to devote their actions to. Sure they are living in the unconsciousness of there own thoughts but at least they can live a life of reason...

Once "reason" comes into what I am doing I can no longer do for the sake of itself. However, without a "reason" behind my doing I don't want to do anything in the first place...

This is what I am currently thinking. :(

Danny, I've noticed that you've started at least 3 threads recently on basically this same topic. I'm not complaining :D just noticing. It seems to me that you have a very important question you're asking. I'd frame it like this: If you live in the present moment and accept what is, how can that mean anything but an ambitionless life? If you remove thought, how do you make plans? How do you act without intention?

It really does seem that many books out there advocate mindlessness disguised as mindfulness. Is there perhaps another way, to distinguish among thoughts, and not banish them completely? I notice, for instance, that in one of your other threads, about thinking, you quote ET as saying he has stopped 80% of the thoughts he used to have. But I notice he still has 20%! Is there a difference between the 20% he still has and the 80% that is gone? I would imagine so.

I think the human brain evolved to spin stories. I think this is what our consciousness is for--to invent scenarios that model the future. This is how we develop reasons to act. This ability made a phenomenal difference in our capacities, and enabled all of human civilization, science, and technology, not to mention all of our literary and artistic culture! As we got better and better at spinning stories, though, we didn't just model the objective physical world, we modeled our internal subjective world. We spun elaborate stories about ourselves and our place in the world, catching ourselves up into webs of distorted perception--"I'm not as good as the popular kids in school," "I'm not pretty enough," "I'm the best swimmer that ever lived," "I'm a failure because I can't do things as easily as my brother," etc. It's like an internal soap opera, and this personal show starts taking up most of our attention. Eventually, everything can revolve around ourselves and our drama. I would suggest that this internal soap opera creates the 80% of thoughts we can do without. Then this frees up the mind, both to be in the present moment and to spin those other 20% of thoughts.

Do you play chess? What I'm talking about in those 20% thoughts is the ability to take the current status of the chessboard and project out scenarios based on every possible movement of your opponent, through at least a few moves into the future. This is our unique human heritage--I call it the "power of the not-now"; it is enhanced by the ability to be present, but by no means should we be advocating a complete abdication of this amazing endowment.
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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby epiphany55 » Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:02 pm

What does it mean to "feel helpless"? What does helplessness feel like? If you're tempted to say... it feels like helplessness, then you are not digging deep enough into the feeling without the distortion of mind.

There are many things in life we can't control, it's just a matter of degrees. How little are you willing to accept you control before you feel helpless?

Even if I have free will (for which I have no evidence), I can't control how my choices today will butterfly out into the world for the unforeseeable future. It doesn't necessarily bother me. I live for experience in this moment. The experience of what is present does not depend upon me having free will. Nor does it mean I have any control over said experiences. My thoughts simply arise. Many of my actions come from thoughts. Uninvited things constantly flow into and out of my experience.

You may feel helpless when you attempt to control experience and find you cannot control it to the degree you hoped, but if you can align yourself fully with the experience itself and rest as that state of being, the purity of awareness, then helplessness will not be an issue.
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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby smiileyjen101 » Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:33 am

As human beings we can transform ourselves by our good qualities and reducing our faults. Our intelligence enables us to judge what is good from what is harmful.
Dalai Lama


Phil said
Well the word 'judge' is maybe not the most appropriate, 'judgement' is something 'intellectual', coming from mind (which is conditioned and might 'distort' reality) ... personally I would prefer a statement saying that intelligence allows us to 'feel' (or 'see' or 'discern') what is good from what is harmfull ... intelligence is about discernment, not judgement ...

Maybe a problem of 'translation' of what the Dalai Lama meant ?


I didn't see a problem in it Phil. The sentence before clarifies it for me - that it is inner awareness combined with intelligence - for me intelligence merely learning from the experience. So 'discerning' could have been easily adopted into that sentence. The mind does indeed help us to understand the 'feeling', the effect of our actions and thoughts.
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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby dannydawiz » Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:12 am

Thank you for your reply Jen. :)

I really like the way you put that. I find it funny that I don't observe the phrase "why not" very much at all in my thoughts. xD

It's true... I breathe in and out anyways. I get out of bed anyways. Although... there have been times where I haven't been able to get out of bed due to me not being able to answer the "why".

What I'm noticing is that it is perfectly possible to 100% disregard my conscious thought processes and do things anyway even if I can't really understand the reason why I'm doing it.

Essentially in order to answer the question "why" or "why not" don't we need to know what it is that we want? Isn't that how decisions are made in the first place?

I don't know what it is that I want... Without a knowing of what it is that I want how am I to make decisions?





Hello again Kathleen! I was not consciously aware that I was asking the same question... I don't even know what it is I'm asking to be honest. As I write this post I don't know what it is that I'm looking for anymore. I'm alive but yet not really living.

I suppose the way you framed my mindset was pretty accurate. You seem to make a distinction between thoughts that we can do with and thoughts we can do without. Sometimes I think that the thoughts and questions I'm thinking at this very moment I could do without. Thinking about these things makes my body feel unpleasant at times. I don't even wanna label it as anything because it isn't necessary anymore.

Sadly I don't play chess but If I understood the point of what you're saying its that I shouldn't try to abandon my sense of future projections.



Hello Epiphany!

I'm aware of the fact that I felt something and after observing the feeling my mind decided to label it as helplessness. I know not any other way to communicate the feelings I experience. The question of whether or not we have free will or are bound by determinism is beyond me. I'm tired of trying to answer the question because to me it is beyond my capacity to understand. Just like you say... What is there that I can do beyond accept what is?
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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby Phil2 » Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:00 am

smiileyjen101 wrote: The mind does indeed help us to understand the 'feeling', the effect of our actions and thoughts.


Maybe, but the 'judgement' does not help us to understand, quite the opposite ... when we say something is 'bad' or 'should not be', it blocks understanding in fact ... it is a resistance to 'what is' which precisely means we don't understand what happens ... and we condemn it, saying it 'should not be' precisely because there is no understanding ...
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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby smiileyjen101 » Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:41 am

This might seem 'off topic' but it's actually speaking to the quality of our thoughts and might be helpful for Danny - about what we think, what we feel, what we hear/read/see as well.

smiileyjen101 wrote:
The mind does indeed help us to understand the 'feeling', the effect of our actions and thoughts.

Phil said: Maybe, but the 'judgement' does not help us to understand, quite the opposite ... when we say something is 'bad' or 'should not be', it blocks understanding in fact ... it is a resistance to 'what is' which precisely means we don't understand what happens ... and we condemn it, saying it 'should not be' precisely because there is no understanding ...


Okay, so you are taking it 'narrower' based on your honing into an interpretation of a single word in a statement - the word 'judge' is filtering the whole quote and experience of it for you - the whole quote would likely have already been a step down, limiting in expression and experience of what was being said.

As human beings we can transform ourselves by our good qualities and reducing our faults. Our intelligence enables us to judge what is good from what is harmful.
Dalai Lama


If we widen our perspective out a little, use a little discernment of our own, and understand what happens in communication in terms of ethos, pathos, logos we might understand the different levels of acceptance and resistance in this specific communication, why yours is narrowing, and mine is widening. It's exactly the same process regardless of the speaker or content - including our own thoughts etc

Ethos (Greek for 'character') refers to the trustworthiness or credibility of the writer or speaker. Ethos is often conveyed through tone and style of the message and through the way the writer or speaker refers to differing views. It can also be affected by the writer's reputation as it exists independently from the message--his or her expertise in the field, his or her previous record or integrity, and so forth. The impact of ethos is often called the argument's 'ethical appeal' or the 'appeal from credibility.'

If we embed the quote in the DL's ethical appeal - (not our own interpretation) how does the statement stand?
What is the likely 'awareness, capacity and willingness' of the Dalai Lama when speaking of such things? Is it likely to be condemning or resistant or reactive, or is it likely to be more inclusive of the things that are 'good qualities' and the things that are 'faults'?

- from the DL's perspective are 'faults' blameworthy or just is? Having been in his company and heard him discuss such things before I would tend to think he neither denies nor condemns faults, but in the next sentence he does follow through with logos, again not 'good and bad' as polar opposites but as potentials for our choosing.

Logos (Greek for 'word') refers to the internal consistency of the message--the clarity of the claim, the logic of its reasons, and the effectiveness of its supporting evidence. The impact of logos on an audience is sometimes called the argument's logical appeal.


Good or harmful natural consequences of using either our 'good' qualities or our faults will have a different experience and outcome. Our good qualities used wisely are not usually harmful in use or in effect, our faults in awareness, capacity and willingness often are harmful, to self and others in both use, and effect.

The use of our intelligence, whatever that is in capacity, allows us to know - recognise the difference.

[P]athos (Greek for 'suffering' or 'experience') is often associated with emotional appeal. But a better equivalent might be 'appeal to the audience's sympathies and imagination.' An appeal to pathos causes an audience not just to respond emotionally but to identify with the writer's point of view--to feel what the writer feels. In this sense, pathos evokes a meaning implicit in the verb 'to suffer'--to feel pain imaginatively.... Perhaps the most common way of conveying a pathetic appeal is through narrative or story, which can turn the abstractions of logic into something palpable and present. The values, beliefs, and understandings of the writer are implicit in the story and conveyed imaginatively to the reader. Pathos thus refers to both the emotional and the imaginative impact of the message on an audience, the power with which the writer's message moves the audience to decision or action.



The DL's pathos has not been illustrated in this quote, two minutes in his company though and you very much feel it, see it, experience the love and joy and humour of it. He holds a stern face in mockery of the thoughts that feed the emotions that create our sense of suffering. In our own minds and words we use Pathos very much to convince ourselves about things being as we are perceiving / expressing and experiencing - oh, woe is me, oh doom and gloom, oh fret and worry, or oh joy and bliss, oh love of my life, oh riches and abundance. Those statements of pathos 'convince' us that our thoughts are 'right'.

Phil you've used ethos, logos and pathos very much in your statements above, and I have in my reply.

Danny, see if you can become aware of using them in your own thoughts- pathos is the one that can over-rule logic and credibility, it is the language of the heart's appeal. It's the one that convinces you that you are 'helpless' when all logic and credibility suggest the opposite. The mind uses the other two more discerningly.

A 'good' communicator (even to oneself) will be aware of balance or not in the ethos, pathos, logos of a statement or even in our interpretations of them.

Shall we open our hearts and minds to just the words, a word, or the wider spirit of them? Phil do you not logically, reasonably and emotionally agree that faults that are harmful have a different expression and create a different experience to those that are born of good qualities? And that it is our intelligence that is aware and judicious about the differences?

Intelligence does indeed help us to distinguish the difference. If we had no intelligence we would just keep making the same mis-takes, instead of making new / different ones. :wink:

In context that it is our persepective that colours our interpretations, the DL did not say good and 'bad' as polar opposites, he said good qualities and faults as the basis for our choosing, and he didn't say bad in the second sentence either, he said 'harmful'. Where, when, how and by whom, did the word 'bad' come into it?

The word 'judge' has many connotations and energetic levels of expression, experience, the key of it for me is in the 'judge not lest you be judged in the same manner' - how can you not be?

The level of awareness, capacity & willingness in judging is your own.
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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby Phil2 » Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:39 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:
The word 'judge' has many connotations and energetic levels of expression, experience, the key of it for me is in the 'judge not lest you be judged in the same manner' - how can you not be?


Intelligence and judgment cannot coexist ... intelligence means 'comprehension' or 'integration' ... while judgement means 'rejection', separation, division ...
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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby dannydawiz » Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:56 am

Hey Jen!

I'm aware of the three rhetorical devices. I never thought of applying them to my own thought processes. If I were to critique my own beliefs then maybe I could learn how to replace the ones that are self-limiting and unrealistic. I'll make more of an effort to study them on my own time.

One thing that I've been thinking about these past few days is meaning. What is it that creates meaning in anything?

I can only guess that it's our brain that gives meaning to our surroundings. In the same way that words in and of themselves are just sounds or figures but somehow our brain manages to give them meaning. In that case, the brain can give meaning to anything by the thoughts, feelings, & memories we have associated with it. If I held up a memento given to a girl by her grandfather it may not mean anything to anyone else but her.

I'm over here trying to find out the meaning in things such as my own actions but without the use of my subjective thinking I am unable to create any sort of meaning. Even the "meaning" in the present moment seems to be created subjectively as a belief system by the mind.

What do you think Jen? Do we create our own meanings through the use of the thinking mind?
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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby smiileyjen101 » Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:18 am

What do you think Jen? Do we create our own meanings through the use of the thinking mind?

Absolutely Danny. We interpret stimuli and make it make sense to us in context, what filters both the interpretation and the context is our own awareness, capacity and willingness. Whether we are viewing (and therefore interpreting) a thing narrowly (personally), or more expansively (universally) becomes our experience of the stimuli.

We have differences of opinions via differences in interpretation.
Eg: the difference in opinions about what judgement is -

Sometimes judgement does feel (is interpreted) as mutually exclusive to intelligence if it is narrow-viewed and reactive, on the other hand the universal (wider) application of judgement might be more benign - like this definition

Judgement (or judgment) is the evaluation of evidence to make a decision.
(wiki)

If one is more globally aware, capable and willing to accept all evidence, rather than myopic personal interpretations of facts / evidence, one can use intelligence in awareness, capacity and willingness and evaluate the evidence and make a decision.

Which leads us back to the Dalai Lama's notion - that we do use (or can with awareness, capacity and willingness) our intelligence to evaluate the evidence of what creates a 'good' experience for self and others, and what creates a 'harmful' experience for self and others.

For instance you Danny already had the awareness of ethos, logos and pathos - and now you are willingly going to expand your capacity and application of that knowledge. It may not happen all the time, but now that you have interpreted the stimuli of it, tested the evidence of it, and opened the door to applying it to your own self talk and thoughts, it has grown in you, of you, through you and for you.

And then there are times of pure creation where it all just happens in this moment and it is not even needed to be analysed or judged, it just 'is', the aha moments when all is balanced and experienced in balance.

If one were to apply open awareness to Phil's statement for instance -

Intelligence and judgment cannot coexist ... intelligence means 'comprehension' or 'integration' ... while judgement means 'rejection', separation, division ...

This is Phil's interpretation of the stimuli that he felt - interpreted and is experiencing, hence his own rejection of the statement that the DL made - no choice is wrong, it just brings a different experience.

I can 'straddle' the DL's statement taking into account the energy and intention in his use of the word, and simultaneously appreciate Phil's interpretation as it is in his awareness, capacity and willingness.

What I think about each of the assertions is pretty irrelevant - judgement just 'is' - whatever it is being experienced and expressed as by those interpreting and experiencing it.

For me it comes and goes in all its accurate and mistaken interpretations of stimuli. Just 'is'.

Yes, using those three - ethos, pathos, logos, (funny how many things that widen our awareness come in threes, not twos-opposites) communication modalities are a naturally arising 'thing', having awareness of them just brings a different experience in our interpreting of things.

The same might be said of the two three-fold states of awareness that ET details - either in acceptance, enjoyment or enthusiasm (awake), or in making an enemy, obstacle, means to an end of 'stuff'.

I sit in acceptance of judgement globally - it is what it is how it is - and I can also absolutely make an enemy, obstacle of it if I am interpreting a thing 'personally'.

Globally, intelligence and judgement do co exist- they both 'are', we accommodate them in acceptance if we widen our awareness, appreciation of the many facets of what judgement is and what intelligence is and the many ways in which they can be experienced and expressed.
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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby dannydawiz » Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:13 am

Thank you Jen!

You make the distinction between evidence and interpretations of facts / evidence. However, don't we all make different interpretations based off of the same evidence?

For example, I once had a conversation with a Pastor at a christian retreat about a bible verse. "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me." By "deny themselves" I told the pastor that the definition of "self" was our identities. When you say to someone "tell me about your self" they are going to say things such as their name, career, and hobbies. He however thought different and told me that I was wrong.

At times, I feel this way with Eckhart in A New Earth. How much of what I read was interpreted accurately?

I understand the core message. Stay present with what it is that you are doing. Don't let the past and future cause you suffering. Stop "waiting" for something external in the future to make you happy.

The part that confuses me is related to awakened doing and meanings to an end. How can anything not be a meanings to an end?

For example, I'm actually rewriting this post because for whatever reason when I tried to submit it last time I had to re-log into my account which deleted the previous draft. As I was writing the previous post I was completely focused on what I was doing. I noticed that I had to go to the bathroom but I decided that I would wait until the post was complete. Was I experiencing a whole lot of joy? I wasn't going through any sort of suffering by any means but neither was I experiencing a whole lot of joy. I'm not complaining at all, but the "end" was to click submit and have you read my message. Instead I had to rewrite this all over.

Did it bother me when I lost my previous post? Sure, for about a minute. After that I got over and decided that I would take a break and rewrite it after I finished a few other things.

Was I living my life as meanings to an end?

Also, how about activities that involve physical pain? For example, when I go to the gym to lift weights I am almost always very present during my sets. Why is this? Pain forces the mind to become present. If I was focused on something else chances are I would either drop the weights or hurt myself. Was I experiencing a whole lot of joy? No, I was experiencing pain. Was I suffering? No I wasn't suffering. However, would I still want to do it if it weren't for the massive amount of benefits that exercise leads to? Things such as increased energy, improved mood, and the release of endorphins? Probably not. The ID wants to pursue pleasure and avoid pain. Why would I want to go through pain simply for the sake of itself? How would it be possible an activity like this to not be a means to an end?

After all, the end is what leads most people making the decision to exercise in the first place is it not? Sure the end may be different for many people. Some people may do it just because they're training for a sport while others just want to stay in shape or lose weight. However, without that end, why would they want to do it? Pain for the sake of pain?

What do you think Jen? Could you offer me some clarity on all of this "meanings to an end" business?
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dannydawiz
 
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