Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby Phil2 » Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:24 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:This might seem 'off topic' but it's actually speaking to the quality of our thoughts and might be helpful for Danny - about what we think, what we feel, what we hear/read/see as well.

smiileyjen101 wrote:
The mind does indeed help us to understand the 'feeling', the effect of our actions and thoughts.

Phil said: Maybe, but the 'judgement' does not help us to understand, quite the opposite ... when we say something is 'bad' or 'should not be', it blocks understanding in fact ... it is a resistance to 'what is' which precisely means we don't understand what happens ... and we condemn it, saying it 'should not be' precisely because there is no understanding ...


Okay, so you are taking it 'narrower' based on your honing into an interpretation of a single word in a statement - the word 'judge' is filtering the whole quote and experience of it for you - the whole quote would likely have already been a step down, limiting in expression and experience of what was being said.

As human beings we can transform ourselves by our good qualities and reducing our faults. Our intelligence enables us to judge what is good from what is harmful.
Dalai Lama


If we widen our perspective out a little, use a little discernment of our own, and understand what happens in communication in terms of ethos, pathos, logos we might understand the different levels of acceptance and resistance in this specific communication, why yours is narrowing, and mine is widening. It's exactly the same process regardless of the speaker or content - including our own thoughts etc

Ethos (Greek for 'character') refers to the trustworthiness or credibility of the writer or speaker. Ethos is often conveyed through tone and style of the message and through the way the writer or speaker refers to differing views. It can also be affected by the writer's reputation as it exists independently from the message--his or her expertise in the field, his or her previous record or integrity, and so forth. The impact of ethos is often called the argument's 'ethical appeal' or the 'appeal from credibility.'

If we embed the quote in the DL's ethical appeal - (not our own interpretation) how does the statement stand?
What is the likely 'awareness, capacity and willingness' of the Dalai Lama when speaking of such things? Is it likely to be condemning or resistant or reactive, or is it likely to be more inclusive of the things that are 'good qualities' and the things that are 'faults'?

- from the DL's perspective are 'faults' blameworthy or just is? Having been in his company and heard him discuss such things before I would tend to think he neither denies nor condemns faults, but in the next sentence he does follow through with logos, again not 'good and bad' as polar opposites but as potentials for our choosing.

Logos (Greek for 'word') refers to the internal consistency of the message--the clarity of the claim, the logic of its reasons, and the effectiveness of its supporting evidence. The impact of logos on an audience is sometimes called the argument's logical appeal.


Good or harmful natural consequences of using either our 'good' qualities or our faults will have a different experience and outcome. Our good qualities used wisely are not usually harmful in use or in effect, our faults in awareness, capacity and willingness often are harmful, to self and others in both use, and effect.

The use of our intelligence, whatever that is in capacity, allows us to know - recognise the difference.

[P]athos (Greek for 'suffering' or 'experience') is often associated with emotional appeal. But a better equivalent might be 'appeal to the audience's sympathies and imagination.' An appeal to pathos causes an audience not just to respond emotionally but to identify with the writer's point of view--to feel what the writer feels. In this sense, pathos evokes a meaning implicit in the verb 'to suffer'--to feel pain imaginatively.... Perhaps the most common way of conveying a pathetic appeal is through narrative or story, which can turn the abstractions of logic into something palpable and present. The values, beliefs, and understandings of the writer are implicit in the story and conveyed imaginatively to the reader. Pathos thus refers to both the emotional and the imaginative impact of the message on an audience, the power with which the writer's message moves the audience to decision or action.



The DL's pathos has not been illustrated in this quote, two minutes in his company though and you very much feel it, see it, experience the love and joy and humour of it. He holds a stern face in mockery of the thoughts that feed the emotions that create our sense of suffering. In our own minds and words we use Pathos very much to convince ourselves about things being as we are perceiving / expressing and experiencing - oh, woe is me, oh doom and gloom, oh fret and worry, or oh joy and bliss, oh love of my life, oh riches and abundance. Those statements of pathos 'convince' us that our thoughts are 'right'.

Phil you've used ethos, logos and pathos very much in your statements above, and I have in my reply.

Danny, see if you can become aware of using them in your own thoughts- pathos is the one that can over-rule logic and credibility, it is the language of the heart's appeal. It's the one that convinces you that you are 'helpless' when all logic and credibility suggest the opposite. The mind uses the other two more discerningly.

A 'good' communicator (even to oneself) will be aware of balance or not in the ethos, pathos, logos of a statement or even in our interpretations of them.

Shall we open our hearts and minds to just the words, a word, or the wider spirit of them? Phil do you not logically, reasonably and emotionally agree that faults that are harmful have a different expression and create a different experience to those that are born of good qualities? And that it is our intelligence that is aware and judicious about the differences?

Intelligence does indeed help us to distinguish the difference. If we had no intelligence we would just keep making the same mis-takes, instead of making new / different ones. :wink:

In context that it is our persepective that colours our interpretations, the DL did not say good and 'bad' as polar opposites, he said good qualities and faults as the basis for our choosing, and he didn't say bad in the second sentence either, he said 'harmful'. Where, when, how and by whom, did the word 'bad' come into it?

The word 'judge' has many connotations and energetic levels of expression, experience, the key of it for me is in the 'judge not lest you be judged in the same manner' - how can you not be?

The level of awareness, capacity & willingness in judging is your own.


All this appears to be so 'intellectual', so verbose, too many words ... 'pathos', 'ethos' etc ...

Reminds me a joke:

Do you know what is a philosopher ?

??

It is a person when you ask him a question, not only you don't understand his answer ... but you don't even understand your question any more ...

:)
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby smiileyjen101 » Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:22 am

Handy Hint: Before submitting highlight and copy the post, then press Submit. If the system has logged you out of the posting area you can then just go back into it and paste your post back in. The posting command has a timeout function, it's not personal :wink:

What do you think Jen? Could you offer me some clarity on all of this "meanings to an end" business?

Means to an end is a 'distortion' of doing a thing. It's when your attention is on something outside of your doing, rather than being absorbed in the doing. Yes we can look up and see if we're heading in the right direction, but we are more focussed on the doing than the end result.

ET: when you want to arrive at your goal more than you want to be doing what you are doing, you become stressed.


Keeping your body fit and healthy is not a 'harmful' thing, it won't cause suffering, at worst you will be in a state of acceptance in balance with what is. You can be 'one' with the weights, exercise, your body movements etc and 'feel' the benefits giving you feedback, if you appreciate the flows of creative energy you might feel like you are dancing with the weights, in the exercises etc.

If however you were at the gym, doing weights to impress others - or any distortion of doing the thing for its own sake, joining 'the gym' because it's the place to be seen by all the 'cool' people etc, you will have stepped out of what it 'is' you are saying you are there for - maintain physical health through exercise. You'll be distracted by checking out who's looking at you doing the weights, how are they looking at you, are they envious or are they sneering, you'll be checking out the others competitively - are their muscles bigger than mine (how big do muscles actually need to be to do their jobs?).... then suffering will arise in the 'distance' between what it is that you are doing, and the reasoning for doing it. It might lead to oh I hate going to the gym, reason, reason, reason. Whereas if you are there in presence you will be in balance and focussed on what it is you are doing - as you were when you were writing.

Conscious doing is in harmony with what is, and attentive to what we are actually doing in a moment.

Acceptance is merely the state of doing something that needs doing, and not making an enemy out of it. ET says
"Performing an action in the state of acceptance means you are at peace while you do it. That peace is a subtle energy vibration which then flows into what you do. On the surface, acceptance looks like a passive state, but in reality it is active and creative because it brings something entirely new into this world."


The thing with enjoyment - is not that you are 'filled with joy' so much but when you are in that state of acceptance any joy can flow through you unshackled from the concerns of ego. It's more a natural expression-flow-energy wherein you and what you are doing are 'one', in harmony, not oh crap I have to do this because otherwise people won't like me or blah blah blah outside of what it is you are doing, and once you are in that state you can have a little fun with it.... it just 'flows', what you are doing 'flows' and joy flows with it.

ET says:
Joy is the dynamic aspect of being. When the creative power of the universe becomes conscious of itself it manifests as joy...

Joy does not come from what you do, it flows into what you do and thus into this world from deep within you. ...You will enjoy (pour joy into) any activity in which you are fully present, any activity that is not JUST a means to an end. It isn't the action that you perform that you really enjoy, but the deep sense of aliveness that flows into it.



Enthusiasm I love how ET explains it as when one knows not just their inner purpose to wake up, but also their outer purpose
'they have a great vision, a goal, and from then on they work toward implementing that goal. Their goal or vision is usually connected in some way to something they are doing on a smaller scale and enjoy doing already.
...
Enthusiasm means there is deep enjoyment in what you do, plus the added element of a goal or a vision that you work towards..... there will be enormous intensity and energy behind what you do. You will feel like an arrow that is moving toward the target - and enjoying the journey.


And yes, we are all going to interpret that differently.

Become aware when you are in a state of 'accept' not like and not hate, just is accept ... feel the resonance of it - the state inside and the quality of the interaction with the 'outside'.

Become aware when you are doing something that you 'enjoy' when something is flowing freely... feel the resonance of it - the state inside and the quality of the interaction with the 'outside'.

Become aware when you are doing something that you are enthusiastic about, where you are the arrow flying towards a target and enjoying it .... feel the resonance of it - the state inside and the quality of the interaction with the 'outside'.

Now, notice your state when/if you think of or relate with something that you view as an 'obstacle' to your happiness... ( I would / will be happy only if / only when....things are not as they are now) feel the resonance of it - the state inside and the quality of the interaction with the 'outside'.

Think of a thing that you view as an enemy... feel the resonance of it - the state inside and the quality of the interaction with the 'outside'.

Think of a thing that you do entirely without acceptance or joy or enthusiasm, grudgingly or with distaste in your mouth and suffering in your heart - that is the 'means to an end' energy.
ET says if you are doing a thing in the states of making an obstacle, enemy, or means to an end of a thing, person or situation - stop doing it!!! In those states we create suffering for self and others.

It might take a little conscious practice to recognise the 'frequencies' of the states. It seems to me that states of the ego cut us off from the universal creation energy, close us down, insulate, solidify, and the awakened states of doing are more free flowing. Acceptance is sitting balanced with all that is, not just our perspective of it, in joy we lose (our sense of) ourselves in what we are doing, enthusiasm we (ego) are completely lost in what we are doing but we know where we are going (yeeehaaaa!!!)
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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby smiileyjen101 » Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:34 am

Phil2 said: All this appears to be so 'intellectual', so verbose, too many words ... 'pathos', 'ethos' etc ...

It is what it is Phil, you will only take from it what you will.
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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby Webwanderer » Thu Jan 01, 2015 5:25 pm

What I've been noticing recently however is that I cannot find an answer to the question why? Not in the sense of what caused this to happen, but in the sense of for what reason? My mind is always looking for a reason to do things. When it is unable to find a reason behind the doing it''s like suddenly I don't want to do it anymore.

The way I see it is the why is for the experience. As conscious beings rather than just human beings we have an evolutionary component to our eternal nature. Each new experience adds experiential information to Our evolutionary expansion. Following what we are inspired to do tends to keep us moving in the direction of our intended purpose when we chose this particular life experience. That said, all experience has value.

So, why do this or that? Because it is evolutionary in the larger sense. Every experience contributes to the All of which we are each a unique perspective. Even disinterest is an experience that contributes in its own way. So you are a contributor, as everyone is, to the greater reality.

WW
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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby Phil2 » Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:56 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:
Phil2 said: All this appears to be so 'intellectual', so verbose, too many words ... 'pathos', 'ethos' etc ...

It is what it is Phil, you will only take from it what you will.


ie. nothing Jen ... when posts are that long it becomes boring for me and I don't read the stuff ... it gives me headaches ... moreover as I said already, your style is very difficult for me to understand ...

... and of course it is what it is ...

:)
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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby smiileyjen101 » Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:03 am

The only direct communication to you Phil was this --
Phil do you not logically, reasonably and emotionally agree that faults that are harmful have a different expression and create a different experience to those that are born of good qualities? And that it is our intelligence that is aware and judicious about the differences?
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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby dannydawiz » Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:06 am

Thanks web wanderer for your thoughts. I’ve never had anyone explain it to me that way.

Hey Jen. Coming from my own experience I’ve noticed that my mind only tends to wander from the present moment if I’m doing something that is a sort of autopilot. For example, There isn’t a whole lot of conscious thought that needs to go behind my walking. There isn’t a whole lot of conscious thought that needs to go behind my typing. A lot of these actions are so deeply embedded in my brain that no thought is necessary for them.

An example would be when I’m washing the dishes. My mind tends to wander when I wash the dishes quite often. When I do that, am I “distorting” what it is that i’m doing?

I can relate quite easily to the following quote.

“ET: when you want to arrive at your goal more than you want to be doing what you are doing, you become stressed”

There have been times in which I’ve literally cried out of frustration because I was trying to accomplish a task but my skills could not meet the challenge. No matter how hard I tried over and over again I just could not change anything. Learned helplessness was beginning to take over. I’m more conscious of it now but at least now I understand what was happening.

You say that going to the gym to keep your body fit and healthy is not a harmful thing and won’t cause any suffering.

Then you say however that going to the gym because you want to impress others is a distortion of doing the thing for its own sake.

Why isn’t the first reason also a distortion of the thing in the first place?

what essentially classifies a “Distortion”?

I mean in both cases you are doing for a reason other than the actual process or its own sake. Doesn’t that make it a means to an end?

The only difference that I can tell is in the first scenario the mind isn’t really wandering while in the second scenario the mind has all of this incessant chatter related to comparisons and social validation.

Is there a relation to mind chatter and states of acceptance?

I’ve noticed that all three states of awakened doing involve a reduction of the mind chatter. When you accept a situation you no longer need to complain about it. When you enjoy a situation you aren’t focused on any other thing. When you are enthusiastic about something you still have a goal but you don’t let the goal become the main focus.

What does it mean to lose your sense of self? I’ve been reading a few things on “ego death” and “flow” and I’ve noticed that all of these things tend to lead to profound realizations about the universe. They are usually viewed in a positive light but I have no idea how in the world to make it happen in my own experience.
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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby Phil2 » Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:57 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:The only direct communication to you Phil was this --
Phil do you not logically, reasonably and emotionally agree that faults that are harmful have a different expression and create a different experience to those that are born of good qualities? And that it is our intelligence that is aware and judicious about the differences?


Right Jen, intelligence allows us to 'discern' (but without judgement) between the quality of our experiences (ie. mainly our emotions, ie. the 'heart') ...

This is the "Secret of the Fox" (in The Little Prince)

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:54 am

You ask great questions Danny, and I need to thank you for doing so. I was thinking this morning about our awareness at level(s) being like a comet on an elliptical orbit around 'stuff' (topics, experiences, awareness of the perspectives and nuances of 'stuff'). When we 'revisit' a thing having journeyed through or past it many times before, it's like a natural consequence that we see it and know it through new eyes.

'Deep and meaningful' conversations have that effect, give us pause to reconsider 'stuff'. :wink:

You say that going to the gym to keep your body fit and healthy is not a harmful thing and won’t cause any suffering.

Then you say however that going to the gym because you want to impress others is a distortion of doing the thing for its own sake.

Why isn’t the first reason also a distortion of the thing in the first place?

what essentially classifies a “Distortion”?

I mean in both cases you are doing for a reason other than the actual process or its own sake. Doesn’t that make it a means to an end?

Universally stimuli creates a plethora of possible interpretations and responses and the response we apply creates a natural outcome / consequence/s.

The natural outcome/consequence of working one's muscles with care for one's body, and paying attention to fitness levels is... a fitter, healthier body than it would have been had one sat on the couch eating junk food.

Going to the gym with the 'intention' of impressing someone - or any thing outside of intention and attention on working individual muscles and muscle groups is layered on top of the natural outcome / consequence.

There will be an equal 'distortion' or fragmentation of physical creative energies. If you're watching someone 'over there' you are not paying attention to the effect that lifting a weight is having on a particular muscle group.

This overlay will be less 'effective' in meeting our 'initial goal' (muscle fitness) because It's stepping outside of the natural cause and effect.

It also cannot ensure 'success' on anything outside of itself especially if it is overlaying our 'will' on something that is not within our capacity to honestly influence. (eg someone else's admiration).

So the purity of the intention and attention is lost, polluted and fragmented if you will. Hence, 'stress'.

The natural consequences / outcome of washing dishes is clean dishes. The washing of the dishes can be done in as pure and focussed intention and attention as anything else, or not. The only difference will be the 'experience' of it.

Is there a relation to mind chatter and states of acceptance?

Well, you tell me - next time you wash the dishes keep all of your attention and intention focussed on the task at hand, the water, the suds, the dishes, the food they contained it's effect in your body, the senses of the experience. You might do it as a session of awareness of your blessings - for the dishes them self, for the food and the people you have shared it with etc You may find from that level of attention and intention the experience is totally absorbing, enjoyable even.

Think about it, before washing the dishes becomes a 'task' it's a delight for children - they cannot wait to do it - there is enthusiasm!! They have a ball doing them. If there are more than one kid in the place they argue over who is going to do them. Me! Me! I want to wash the dishes!!! There is joy!! Then something gets lost - what gets lost is our attention and our appreciation of the experience. Then the kids all say can't someone else do it? And in the rejection it becomes a stressor from which we take our attention elsewhere.

All things in pure awareness are 'different' there is just a different quality in the experience. I don't know that it's thoughts so much as awareness - when one is walking to be aware of our feet touching the ground, the sensory input all around us only in this moment, in this place.

A friend of mine was only very slightly bemoaning that he'd missed his 'normal' bus home and had a long walk home in the cold and snowy early morning of the new year. For me, serendipity!!! An experience of the landscape and the environment in the peace and quiet after the exhilaration of new year celebrations. An opportunity to see it all anew. Snowdrops touching your face are a pure bliss if one is in acceptance, the scrunch of feet on newly fallen snow an absolute yum, care and attention of and for your footfall, awareness of your surroundings and others in it, connecting in acceptance, bemoaning it just brings a different (distorted - polluted - stressful) experience.

So in ET's awakened or not doing - one person might have made an enemy, obstacle or means to an end of the walk home, another might have walked it in acceptance, enjoyment and enthusiasm. Both of them would reach the same place / destination - but each would have a totally different experience on the way there.

Make sense?
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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:24 am

This is hokey beyond words :P and I do not apologise...

I am so enthusiastic about living life as it is, not in creating distractions to it or resistance to it, but in letting it be all that it is in pure awareness.

After posting the above, the wise words of John Lennon arose -- life, is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans.

And my intelligence said - well, that's one option.

Charles Aznavour, a French singer of such enthusiasm for life, has a 'different' take, in his song "I have lived".

So I went to youtube to find it in order to share it, and the beginning of this clip - that I have never seen before --- just bubbled me, just melted and bubbled me, right here, right now, as a natural consequence of just following my heart.... it is perfect!!! His honesty and his joy in sharing, just yum yum yum.

https://www.youtube.com./watch?v=yCKNABd6eOc
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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby dannydawiz » Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:50 am

Thank you so much Jen for everything that you just said.

Reading your paragraphs are like catching tiny glimpses of light in a tunnel filled with nothing but pitch black.

What you said about "natural" cause and effect makes SO much sense. So much sense that I feel so thankful to have read it.

The natural cause and effect of for example practicing basketball would be that you would become a better player. However If I were practicing basketball in order to impress someone or to fit in with a group then there is an extra "distorted" layer added to the activity. Instead of completely focusing on the ball during practices I would constantly be bothered with internal thoughts about how practicing basketball is going to impress all these people. I would become less focused on the moment and as a result it would be harder for me to practice basketball. Also in the case that I did become really good and I still didn't "impress" others, I may not want to practice basketball at all anymore.

When you do something for any reason other than its natural consequences you are stepping outside of the natural cause and effect.

In a way its like means which lead to natural ends look like this. 1 + 1 = 2

On the other hand, means which lead to unnatural ends look like this. 1 + 1 = 2 + (mental filler/unnatural effect)

Jen, I really enjoy talking to you. I feel like you're the only one who I can speak to that actually understands what I'm saying and can say things back that actually help and make sense. I've tried talking to other people but they can't really comprehend things.

I don't mean to take up your time because I'm sure you have other things to do, but is there any way that I could IM you somehow? If not its okay. I just have so many questions about things and I don't feel like I'm getting any actual answers from anywhere else aside from you and the other people on this forum.

Also, I'm sorry for taking more than a day to reply. I'm done with winter break and going back to school tomorrow and as a result I've had lots of homework to deal with.

Let me know if you would be willing. If not, thats okay.

Thank you. :)
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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby smiileyjen101 » Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:59 pm

Danny sure you can PM me - if you're logged into the forum just click on the little PM button at the right of the post and you'll see a Message link.

I too resonate with you. We connect at a level of gratitude & generosity. The thing with having deep and meaningful discussions on the forum though is that others get to read it like a story, and we are characters. You are one smart young cookie, and I've just been around the universe a few more times (was gonna say 'block' but I'll stay with the 'comet' link.... :wink: ) Webby tuned in with really insightful stuff too.

There are many topics on the forum that I just read as a reader, and learn much from, in the relating between characters as much as the content - it's a natural consequence that the internet has provided (and thank you Eric for giving us the 'venue'). You might, or I might, ask questions readers don't even realise they would like to read different responses to that might naturally spark something in them.

Sure for some we're too wordy and verbose, and that's really none of our business. We never know where those little gems or shafts of light will come from, they are a gift of open-hearted sharing. The forum itself is an ecosystem, and we're all just little weeds growing and tangling in it.


When you do something for any reason other than its natural consequences you are stepping outside of the natural cause and effect.

In a way its like means which lead to natural ends look like this. 1 + 1 = 2

On the other hand, means which lead to unnatural ends look like this. 1 + 1 = 2 + (mental filler/unnatural effect)

I love that you've made this leap in awareness. The ++ is also natural, it's just with awareness we can be conscious of it, of our creation of it and choose our responses to it more lovingly.

Also in the case that I did become really good and I still didn't "impress" others, I may not want to practice basketball at all anymore.

This is true of anything, I like the basketball analogy, you could also apply it to your studies.

Do the things that ET says of us making 'enemy, obstacle, means to an end' creating suffering for self and others make more sense now? Whereas in acceptance, enjoyment and enthusiasm one is flowing more naturally with the creative energies of the universe. I think that's my favourite gem from ET.

It becomes easier to recognise cause & effect in stuff.

You could go right back to the OP in this thread and look more lovingly - awarely at what was arising.

For instance Webby's gem ---
Both determinism and free will are true.... to an extent. Knowing the context where one or the other is primary is the key to understanding how life in this form works.... to an extent.

WW


That may have deeper understanding now too.

Did you watch the Charles Aznavour clip? I used to figure I'd have it played at my funeral :lol:
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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby dannydawiz » Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:59 am

I did watch the video Jen. :)

As ironic as this sounds... I finally went to see a doctor this week and I've been diagnosed with depression. :(

It's hard. I don't even know whether its just the voice in my head or not but I just feel so incredibly sad, hopeless, and frustrated with everything. I don't feel like I've got anything to live for. I can't think clearly and it's unbelievably hard for me to focus on anything. I've been throwing up lately and for some reason these past few days I just can't bring myself to smile... It's just a constant frown.

I'm putting my faith in god now. It's all I really have left. I hope this will all end at some point. I no longer understand anything about my self or the world. It has helped but I don't know how much longer I have left.

Thanks for talking to me. :)
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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby smiileyjen101 » Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:43 am

I'm sorry to hear that Danny, may you find a light out of the darkness.

I just started a very interesting (& I think helpful) book yesterday. I've named it and a link to ACT Acceptance and Commitment Therapy.

One might say you've received a 'slap' and that's what this book deals with.

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=13058

hugs Jen
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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Re: Determinism Makes Me Feel Helpless

Postby KathleenBrugger » Mon Jan 12, 2015 9:20 pm

dannydawiz wrote:I did watch the video Jen. :)

As ironic as this sounds... I finally went to see a doctor this week and I've been diagnosed with depression. :(

It's hard. I don't even know whether its just the voice in my head or not but I just feel so incredibly sad, hopeless, and frustrated with everything. I don't feel like I've got anything to live for. I can't think clearly and it's unbelievably hard for me to focus on anything. I've been throwing up lately and for some reason these past few days I just can't bring myself to smile... It's just a constant frown.

I'm putting my faith in god now. It's all I really have left. I hope this will all end at some point. I no longer understand anything about my self or the world. It has helped but I don't know how much longer I have left.

Thanks for talking to me. :)

Danny this is hard to read. I'm glad you reached out to someone in your physical life (i.e., not virtual forum) for help. As I said earlier in this thread, it seemed to me that you've been trying to understand what seems to be a fundamental paradox of spirituality--how do you accept everything from a place of detachment and still manifest intention in the world? I pointed out Sighclone's Intention thread partly to illustrate that this is a problem for other people too. Then I was going to suggest that you question some of the assumptions you may have made while reading/listening to spiritual teachers, but the dialogue with Jen seemed fruitful so I refrained. But after your last post I thought I'd go ahead and say it. Maybe you've come to some incorrect conclusions from your reading? Maybe there's nothing wrong with thought, ambition, intention, desire. All of those things are necessary to live on this planet, unless you go live in a monastery somewhere. Maybe you've been trying to throw the baby out with the bathwater, that is, in an attempt to rid yourself of "bad" thoughts you've tried to eliminate all thought.

You are still under 20, right? From my experience "no longer understanding anything about my self or the world" is the general state of consciousness for teen-agers. At that age you are seeing through the beliefs, assumptions, and lies of your parents and social group, but you haven't lived long enough to find answers for yourself. It's a confusing time for almost everybody. Give yourself a break. There's no rush here. Maybe you've been pushing yourself too hard to find the answer to your questions.

In any case, know that I care about you also.
We are ALL Innocent by Reason of Insanity
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