why you will never be enlightened

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why you will never be enlightened

Postby VIVIAN » Thu Dec 25, 2014 12:11 am

New to the forum, but thinking of this topic for years. Used to be a great goal, but this is why no one is enlightened. See if you can have patience with my process, despite the wriggle room and fallacies of all logic and language.I invite criticism, and that's why I'm writing this.

There is enlightenment and you can be enlightened after a manner of speaking. For instance, you are in your living room, the lights go out, and you are in darkness. You fumble your way to a phone, find the number of the utility company, and are informed that service has been shut down because you have been delinquent in your payments for some time. Ah ha - now you know, and are after a manner of speaking 'enlightened' about this rather pedestrian occurrence.

However, I suspect you cannot be or become enlightened in the sense that spiritual teachers or members of the priestly classes of some religions (including Buddhism) ask us to believe. I won't go into why they would want us to hope or agree with them.

This is why I half feel and half reason that enlightenment is impossible, and that, for example, prince Buddha was never enlightened. It is usually considered to be a permanent state. It is usually called by certain names; I won't bore you with the list or how it is best supposed to be attained. But let us reason together. You are not a self. You are not a self because you can never totally draw a firm and complete circle around what you are that makes you a self; a person. Oh, you will succeed to a degree, but most of us on this forum will agree that lots of things will be inadvertently unnoticed and left out that could be included. Change is ubiquitous or so it would seem; that is why I can't firmly define who I am. Yet I sat under a bodhi tree and became awakened or an enlightened being. See? 'You' can't be a 'self' that is enlightened because only a degree of ordinary, everyday enlightenment is required to demonstrate to an alert self or being or creature that 'self' is an ever-changing phenomena, just like the rest of the ever-changing and shifting phenomenal universe. So, sure, there is 'enlightenment', but you can't be enlightened, no, not the way all the books and spiritual teachers and priests have described it.

Let me define just a little bit how this state is supposed to feel. There is no suffering. Yet I say all these enlightened teachers must suffer if they phenomenally exist. Maybe they don't suffer much compared to most people, but they recognize us and we recognize them as selves. If you really are not a self and you don't have existence, then you don't suffer, but then you are also unable to collect an offering for your temple or publish books and DVDs. In other words *you cannot be enlightened*. Oh, by the way, isn't Buddha supposed to have said at some point "all is suffering'?" Here's another way Abraham (you know about Abraham, some of you?) has said it. I paraphrase and won't use marks to quote him. *You can feel better; you can feel worse, but you can't feel best, and you can't feel worst.*

Now this is meant to introduce the problem, and the best questions usually are never fully resolved. However, is there anyone here that can help me to begin agree with the classic list of names of eastern spiritual teachers and poets about personal enlightenment? While great joy or bliss has been experienced, some sorrow must exist along with it. Where there is truly no self, there can also be no joy or bliss, and no sorrow.
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Re: why you will never be enlightened

Postby Phil2 » Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:33 pm

As Mooji said "Forget about enlightenment" ... "Forget about spirituality" ... "that is a trap" ... give up all those ideas, drop all and stay quiet ...

Here's the video, I recommend this one, one of the best from Mooji, in great shape ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pS_wPeDxDQ
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)
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Re: why you will never be enlightened

Postby rachMiel » Thu Dec 25, 2014 11:02 pm

VIVIAN wrote:Where there is truly no self, there can also be no joy or bliss, and no sorrow.

Afaiui awakening doesn't end emotions. On the contrary, emotions are experienced more directly and vividly. What it does end is attachment to emotions. There is experiencing ... and letting go, arising and falling, cause and effect, cause and effect, over and over and over again. Nothing ultimately "sticks," it's all fluid.
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Re: why you will never be enlightened

Postby Clouded » Fri Dec 26, 2014 4:19 am

Who said that enlightenment is usually a permanent state?
"If you want to know what your were like in the past, look at your body today. If you want to know what your body will be like in the future, look at your thoughts today." -Deepak
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Re: why you will never be enlightened

Postby Onceler » Fri Dec 26, 2014 4:22 am

rachMiel wrote:
VIVIAN wrote:Where there is truly no self, there can also be no joy or bliss, and no sorrow.

Afaiui awakening doesn't end emotions. On the contrary, emotions are experienced more directly and vividly. What it does end is attachment to emotions. There is experiencing ... and letting go, arising and falling, cause and effect, cause and effect, over and over and over again. Nothing ultimately "sticks," it's all fluid.


What is "afaiui", Rach, some arcane spiritual term or auto correct set to look like some arcane spiritual word? Either way, great word!
Be present, be pleasant.
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Re: why you will never be enlightened

Postby rachMiel » Fri Dec 26, 2014 4:47 am

As far as I understand it.

Did I make it up?
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Re: why you will never be enlightened

Postby Onceler » Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:32 pm

Oh, okay....thanks for enlightening me.
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Re: why you will never be enlightened

Postby rachMiel » Fri Dec 26, 2014 4:47 pm

;-)

Rest well in awareness of your present experience, brother. :-)

Swami rachMielananda
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Re: why you will never be enlightened

Postby Onceler » Fri Dec 26, 2014 5:32 pm

rachMiel wrote:;-)

Rest well in awareness of your present experience, brother. :-)

Swami rachMielananda


Right back at you, swami!
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Re: why you will never be enlightened

Postby randomguy » Fri Dec 26, 2014 6:32 pm

I agree that the personal self as commonly described to be imagined is not an enlightened thing primarily because it is composed of imagination/experience. I encourage questioning the statement that where there is a recognition of no-self there is necessarily no joy. It is clear that a joy of being just is for no reason yet also can be overshadowed with the experience of a bunch of stories about a self clung-to including spiritual stories about enlightenment of course. I would also like to add that the good pointers in texts or elsewhere offered aren't necessarily describing a personal, permanent state of enlightenment nor are they stating what is objectively true. They are pointing to what already is but obscured by confusion.

For example there is this nice bit about Ramana near death.

During his final illness, various devotees of Ramana continued to plead that they needed his physical presence to help them in their spiritual practice. Ramana replied, You attach too much importance to the body. They say that I am dying, but I am not going away: where would I go? I am here.


Are his words spoken as a personal experience of the body that is known to end as all experience does, or are his words spoken from the perspective more or less as eternal existence itself? The best of what he and others have said points to finding out this recognition for one's self not so much selling a compelling idea about personal enlightenment to be believed.
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Re: why you will never be enlightened

Postby Onceler » Fri Dec 26, 2014 7:32 pm

Enlightenment, like sex, is over rated.
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Re: why you will never be enlightened

Postby Phil2 » Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:06 am

Onceler wrote:Enlightenment, like sex, is over rated.


Yes, forget about enlightenment ... and forget about sex too :lol:

Reminds me a joke: Freud spoke much about sex ... but Jung had it ...
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Re: why you will never be enlightened

Postby VIVIAN » Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:45 pm

Hopefully this tale rather famously passed on by Joseph Campbell supports your expressed sentiments. http://www.wisdomportal.com/Enlightenme ... erses.html
For example there is this nice bit about Ramana near death.

During his final illness, various devotees of Ramana continued to plead that they needed his physical presence to help them in their spiritual practice. Ramana replied, You attach too much importance to the body. They say that I am dying, but I am not going away: where would I go? I am here.


Are his words spoken as a personal experience of the body that is known to end as all experience does, or are his words spoken from the perspective more or less as eternal existence itself? The best of what he and others have said points to finding out this recognition for one's self not so much selling a compelling idea about personal enlightenment to be believed.[/quote]
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Re: why you will never be enlightened

Postby VIVIAN » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:34 am

Clouded wrote:Who said that enlightenment is usually a permanent state?


I'm happy to add to the list among the most recent enlightenment sellers, yet I don't disclaim anyone; we must all make a living. Maybe it starts around a fragile, flickering fire attended by shivering neanderthals hoping for a better tomorrow. Later, hope was the last demon that never fully escaped from Pandora's box, and still plagues our species like ticks on a dog. Nietzsche seems to have been the first to scoff at the idea of a grand purpose for the universe, but if joy could be a purpose, that might be it.

So many, from cults to major religions, have versions of the happy hunting grounds. We thereby seek to soothe and be soothed by our stories, and we often succeed in our end. The stories have served a kindly purpose.

The most popular stories seek refinement by the new generations of tellers; they are inspired to add levels and planes to the paradises as new audiences are maybe be not so responsive to them.

The Hindus and Vendantist theories of consciousness have most lately captured our Western hearts. I guess it started with the Beatles going to India to be with Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. The Transcendental Meditation fad of the seventies most recently popularized a permanent state of the freedom of a jiva, though the theory is as old as The Song of the Lord, their Bhagavad Gita, and perhaps some of the latter Vedas. Here is a good overview page of their beliefs that have remained stalwart since the seventies. http://tmhome.com/books-videos/7-states ... interview/ Cosmic consciousness is roughly full development of the mind, god consciousness is full development of the heart, and unity consciousness is the highest human development possible wherein the perceptions of the heart and mind become unified. Once either of these states of consciousness are entered, there is no return to a state of suffering, and no more human incarnations.
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