Overthinking Tolle's Message

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Re: Overthinking Tolle's Message

Postby smiileyjen101 » Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:15 am

Ruminating or obsessive worry is a feature of anxiety disorders, which prevents people from being attentive to new things, it hampers growth and learning... Because it's essential to expose yourself to new things in order to learn & grow.


& therefore one need not worry if it's someone's second book or not, just treat it as a 'new thing'. :wink:

BTW, why a second book anyway? One would have thought Tolles core & essential doctrine would have been found in his first book....

I read ANE before I read the Power of Now, (just happened that way) and I don't see either of them as an 'essential doctrine', merely helpful information from different perspectives.

ANE covers a lot about irrational fears, how they got there, how to see when they're not real, looking at the naturally unfolding consequences of them - and that is the real exposure benefit ==== to comprehend that your mind in some cases is playing tricks on you, and how to see through them and come back to reality.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
http://www.balancinginfluences.com
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Re: Overthinking Tolle's Message

Postby randomguy » Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:47 pm

I’ve tested all the knowledge I've uncovered over the years on my own anxiety spectrum disorder and basically it works!

That’s great. Does this mean messages other than exposure therapy are wrong?

It's the power of exposure... not the power of now...which ultimately allows you to overcome mental suffering.

Is it possible that his message isn’t as singularly focused as you imagine? To me his writing has a wider dimension when he speaks of “now” than does yours. Is it possible you are missing something from his writing and attacking his message without fully understanding it?

From PoN below. Hopefully this ties back to the OP as well about overthinking.

DON'T SEEK YOUR SELF IN THE MIND
I feel that there is still a great deal I need to learn about the workings of my mind before I can
get anywhere near full consciousness or spiritual enlightenment.


No, you don't. The problems of the mind cannot be solved on the level of the mind. Once you
have understood the basic dysfunction, there isn't really much else that you need to learn or
understand. Studying the complexities of the mind may make you a good psychologist, but doing
so won't take you beyond the mind, just as the study of madness isn't enough to create sanity.
You have already understood the basic mechanics of the unconscious state: identification with
the mind, which creates a false self, the ego, as a substitute for your true self rooted in Being.
You become as a "branch cut off from the vine," as Jesus puts it.
The ego's needs are endless. It feels vulnerable and threatened and so lives in a state of fear
and want. Once you know how the basic dysfunction operates, there is no need to explore all its
countless manifestations, no need to make it into a complex personal problem. The ego, of
course, loves that. It is always seeking for something to attach itself to in order to uphold and
strengthen its illusory sense of self, and it will readily attach itself to your problems. This is why,
for so many people, a large part of their sense of self is intimately connected with their problems.
Once this has happened, the last thing they want is to become free of them; that would mean loss
of self. There can be a great deal of unconscious ego investment in pain and suffering.
So once you recognize the root of unconsciousness as identification with the mind, which of
course includes the emotions, you step out of it. You become present. When you are present, you
can allow the mind to be as it is without getting entangled in it. The mind in itself is not
dysfunctional. It is a wonderful tool. Dysfunction sets in when you seek your self in it and
mistake it for who you are. It then becomes the egoic mind and takes over your whole life.

END THE DELUSION OF TIME
It seems almost impossible to disidentify from the mind. We are all immersed in it. How do you
teach a fish to fly?


Here is the key. End the delusion of time. Time and mind are inseparable. Remove time from the
mind and it stops - unless you choose to use it.

To be identified with your mind is to be trapped in time: the compulsion to live almost
exclusively through memory and anticipation. This creates an endless preoccupation with past
and future and an unwillingness to honor and acknowledge the present moment and allow it to
be. The compulsion arises because the past gives you an identity and the future holds the promise
of salvation, of fulfillment in whatever form. Both are illusions.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho
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Re: Overthinking Tolle's Message

Postby ashley72 » Tue Aug 11, 2015 10:42 pm

You can't go beyond mind or your ego because that is what you are comprised of my friend.

The field of AI has already proven that autonomous learning is based on constructing a bunch of neutral networks which use simple algorithms to map the primary domain onto the target domain by way of isomorphism/analogies. The self or awareness of agency arises out of many feedback loops that form in this kind of system which can be so complex that you achieve a tangled hierarchy of levels, where there is no definitive highest or lowest level... because the lowest level can causally act on the highest level just as the highest level can causally act on the lowest level... You can find these strange networks flowing loops in DNA and enzymes through protein synthesis and DNA replication, and self-referential Gödelian statements in formal systems.

Have you ever wondered how the whole Universe is entirely comprised of nothing more than atomic electrons, oscillating standing wave points which are basically a bunch of no-selfs... Which can some how magically form to create living bodies that have agency or selfs (perception of free-will)?

Well it's because of a system of feedback loops that become so complex, you can start to create agency, the flipping of causality at a different level (perception) as oppose to the objective level.

If you could have an atomic lens that could only filter the giant sea of wave-like electrons you would determine that an a-periodic structure is at the heart of life forms, agency, grow & learning.
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Re: Overthinking Tolle's Message

Postby randomguy » Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:34 am

You can't go beyond mind or your ego because that is what you are comprised of my friend.

That’s just all mixed up. Anyway if you care to investigate it, there that statement sits with it's reflections of conjured limitations and unexplored assumptions.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho
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Re: Overthinking Tolle's Message

Postby ashley72 » Wed Aug 12, 2015 1:09 am

randomguy wrote:
You can't go beyond mind or your ego because that is what you are comprised of my friend.

That’s just all mixed up. Anyway if you care to investigate it, there that statement sits with it's reflections of conjured limitations and unexplored assumptions.


It's not mixed up. You just don't know what you are...let's define Mind

"the element of a person that enables them to be aware of the world and their experiences, to think, and to feel; the faculty of consciousness and thought."

You wouldn't be typing your responses without mind. :wink:

The self, is where you perceive yourself as a separate entity with agency. The very fact your arguing with me on this forum (another self)... proves my point perfectly... If you were a rock well I wouldn't be able to argue you with! :wink:

It's not the self that utilizes the brain, its the brain that utilizes the self model. If it's possible to implement the correct amount of feedback loops in an artificial system, its just a case of building the hardware and then writing the correct algorithms that can drive the self model in causal terms. This is what philosophers refer to as functional analysis. If we ever reach that point where we have achieved the right amount of functional analysis to operate a self model, the mystery of consciousness and self will vanish completely, and artificial ego driven machines, will become technologically feasible.

Right now, it seems absurd that a bunch of silicon computer chips, could one day in the future run a bunch of algorithms that make an artificial ego arise within that machine system... but conceptually it may be achievable in the next 50 years.
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Re: Overthinking Tolle's Message

Postby randomguy » Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:42 am

There is a subtle agreement when in a love affair with thought. It is an acceptance of not knowing for sure. It is Ok to have a good enough explanation plus a promise of a better one on the horizon. Perhaps a tolerance for holes in the story is a small price to pay for the beautiful ideas enjoyed and experienced. It's as if being lied to is the sacrifice to pay for the stability of the love affair. If it comes into question though, if thought becomes in the slightest bit suspect as untrustworthy, then the tolerance may dwindle. The measure may then be to know absolutely and one may become more curious about the origin of how this or that explanation is known; as in how does knowing happen. One may become very curious about the source of mind and the source of the self identity. Models and stories dancing in imagination won't suffice anymore and the significant limitations to the gifts that thoughts offer which were previously hidden in plain sight but ignored for the sake of the relationship become burned into perception during the break-up.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho
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Re: Overthinking Tolle's Message

Postby ashley72 » Fri Aug 14, 2015 5:38 am

Thought is analogy making...basically the linking of two mental structures, the 1st is more concrete & from our past, and the one being born is more abstract, crude & blurry which requires the 1st representation for its own structural foundation. So of course thought is less than absolute & perfect... it has inherent gaps in the mental representation. :wink:

So thought is a kind of "blurry" superposition of many linked mental representations from our past.
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