Try as I might, I can't shake the past.

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Try as I might, I can't shake the past.

Postby Marty » Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:48 pm

Even in my moments of greatest presence and clarity, when I'm allowing thoughts to gently enter and leave my mind without identifying with them, I find that past conditioning still has a hold on me.

I've always had low self-esteem. Through the teachings of Mr. Tolle, I've been trying to realise that the stories I identify with my 'self' are just that, stories. But that realisation doesn't seem to penetrate the deeply ingrained feeling of low self-worth that is always with me (even when I'm very present and not relating to the concept of a self).

This feeling has stolen all passion from my life. I have no sex drive. I cannot make art, which I know is one of my main life's purposes. It's as if I can't trust my instincts in any situation, even slightly. Through practicing presence I can achieve calmness (opposed to the usual painful depression) but life still feels grey and completely lacking in joy. I can only go on like this for so much longer before I'll have to turn to antidepressant medication.

Guidance of any sort would be greatly appreciated.
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Re: Try as I might, I can't shake the past.

Postby Webwanderer » Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:06 pm

Welcome to the forum Marty.

When you think about yourself, who are you... really? Are you the body/mind/belief identification? What does it truly feel like to be you? If you feel any negative sense what so ever, you still identify with your conditioning from your years in this body to date. There's no judgment here, only recognition. If you want to gain a new sense of identity, one that feels your own genuine self worth, you have to get beyond that latent conditioning and back to a clear realization of your genuine true nature.

What you know as self is only an extension of something far greater, and far beyond the point of reference that you know. Of course you cannot take my word for it. You must uncover it for yourself. So who are you... really? Search this out until there is clarity and realization. The truth will make you free. Free from what? From the misperception that you hold that you are a being unworthy of love and joy and happiness. The truth is you are worthy and valued and appreciated more than can be described in human words. We all are.

The willingness to come into this form and take the risks of difficult experiences for the love of expansion into ever greater beingness is valued indeed - valued by the Infinite Creative Consciousness that sent you forth to explore the potential of this world. This Source loves you and holds you worthy unconditionally. Even so, you can live the rest of your life in despair and self-judgment for any and all imagined shortcomings and it will make no difference to the love and appreciation in which you are held from the larger reality.

I encourage you to seek out this understanding. Connect to and align with it, your true nature, and feel the truth of your essential being - no matter how long it takes. Make it a part of your life's work.

In doing so you will feel your self-worth in a way that will change your life and inspire you to explore, create, and live with spontaneity free of self-judgment. Who are you... really? Discover this. Live from it. Live as it. It's there for you to know. It's there for all of us. It is indeed closer than our breath. The mind can help, but the realization must be felt. So cultivate your feeling nature when the mind is silent. It is the true language of spirit. It is the 'still small voice' that guides us as we learn to perceive its insight.

WW
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Re: Try as I might, I can't shake the past.

Postby tod » Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:21 pm

Welcome Marty.

Marty wrote:Even in my moments of greatest presence and clarity, when I'm allowing thoughts to gently enter and leave my mind without identifying with them, I find that past conditioning still has a hold on me.


This illustrates that you are identifying as someone situated somewhere, ie, a person in time, even though you may think you are not. Thinking that you are someone somewhere is conditioning (belief).

I've always had low self-esteem. Through the teachings of Mr. Tolle, I've been trying to realise that the stories I identify with my 'self' are just that, stories. But that realisation doesn't seem to penetrate the deeply ingrained feeling of low self-worth that is always with me (even when I'm very present and not relating to the concept of a self).


Your feelings about yourself now are projections (or rather introjections) of your thoughts about yourself now. You may not be aware of these thoughts as you are focusing on the feelings.

This feeling has stolen all passion from my life. I have no sex drive. I cannot make art, which I know is one of my main life's purposes. It's as if I can't trust my instincts in any situation, even slightly. Through practicing presence I can achieve calmness (opposed to the usual painful depression) but life still feels grey and completely lacking in joy. I can only go on like this for so much longer before I'll have to turn to antidepressant medication.


You appear to not have grokked that Marty is in time but presence (awareness) is not. Primarily, you are not Marty, you are awareness, presence - and presence does not feel like anything.

And what you appear to be doing is forcing Marty to be present... And the only way Marty can be present is by thought thinking that it is (or putting itself) in some blankish calm sort of state - hence the greyness and absence of joy - a state of mind - not presence. Being present is being in mind, it is not presence.

What you primarily are is not Marty, you only think/assume you are Marty. To illustrate this, when you are deeply involved in some greatly pleasurable activity are you Marty? - or is Marty some thought that pops up at intervals that may be something like: "Wow, I'm having fun here" or "Now where did I put my trousers"...

With best wishes,
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Re: Try as I might, I can't shake the past.

Postby the key master » Sat Dec 05, 2015 12:56 am

Marty wrote:Even in my moments of greatest presence and clarity, when I'm allowing thoughts to gently enter and leave my mind without identifying with them, I find that past conditioning still has a hold on me.

I've always had low self-esteem. Through the teachings of Mr. Tolle, I've been trying to realise that the stories I identify with my 'self' are just that, stories. But that realisation doesn't seem to penetrate the deeply ingrained feeling of low self-worth that is always with me (even when I'm very present and not relating to the concept of a self).



Ok so you had a story going on, and then you became conscious of this deeply ingrained feeling of low self worth.

This feeling has stolen all passion from my life. I have no sex drive. I cannot make art, which I know is one of my main life's purposes. It's as if I can't trust my instincts in any situation, even slightly.


This doesn't sound good.

Through practicing presence I can achieve calmness (opposed to the usual painful depression) but life still feels grey and completely lacking in joy. I can only go on like this for so much longer before I'll have to turn to antidepressant medication.

Guidance of any sort would be greatly appreciated.


It seems like your presence practice is being done to avoid that feeling. Is that logical?

Shaking the past is not a bad way to describe what happens as you become more conscious. Often times we carry vibrations which populate the world of perception with our projections, and this is not conscious. These vibrations can be learned vibrations, the result of the ever shifting ideal you according to collective standards breaking away from who you know yourself to be from your own experiences. Everyone experiences this to a varying degree, particularly within the confines of identification.

That feeling of unworthiness is being made conscious now because who you know yourself to be is out of wack with who you want to be. Some refer to who you want to be as your facade, or ego, the self you hold up to the world. and this is as much a result of who you want to be as how the world around you wants you to be. Dismantling that facade would allow the feeling of unworthiness to express itself.

You are worthy to be just the way you are. Who ever told you otherwise was, welp, wrong. Whose opinions do you value? Whose approval are you looking for? Who isn't giving it to you? These sorts of probing questions can stir up that energy and give it space for expression. Which is about the time folks go back to practicing presence.
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Re: Try as I might, I can't shake the past.

Postby the key master » Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:05 am

Webwanderer wrote:Welcome to the forum Marty.

When you think about yourself, who are you... really? Are you the body/mind/belief identification? What does it truly feel like to be you? If you feel any negative sense what so ever, you still identify with your conditioning from your years in this body to date. There's no judgment here, only recognition. If you want to gain a new sense of identity, one that feels your own genuine self worth, you have to get beyond that latent conditioning and back to a clear realization of your genuine true nature.



My suggestion is that the sense of identity is the problem. Generating a feeling of worthiness is not the solution to feeling unworthy. One would need to be conscious of why they feel that way and what they feel unworthy about. You don't need a worthy identity for that, just self honesty and willingness.

What you know as self is only an extension of something far greater, and far beyond the point of reference that you know. Of course you cannot take my word for it. You must uncover it for yourself. So who are you... really? Search this out until there is clarity and realization. The truth will make you free. Free from what? From the misperception that you hold that you are a being unworthy of love and joy and happiness. The truth is you are worthy and valued and appreciated more than can be described in human words. We all are.

The willingness to come into this form and take the risks of difficult experiences for the love of expansion into ever greater beingness is valued indeed - valued by the Infinite Creative Consciousness that sent you forth to explore the potential of this world. This Source loves you and holds you worthy unconditionally. Even so, you can live the rest of your life in despair and self-judgment for any and all imagined shortcomings and it will make no difference to the love and appreciation in which you are held from the larger reality.

I encourage you to seek out this understanding. Connect to and align with it, your true nature, and feel the truth of your essential being - no matter how long it takes. Make it a part of your life's work.

In doing so you will feel your self-worth in a way that will change your life and inspire you to explore, create, and live with spontaneity free of self-judgment. Who are you... really? Discover this. Live from it. Live as it. It's there for you to know. It's there for all of us. It is indeed closer than our breath. The mind can help, but the realization must be felt. So cultivate your feeling nature when the mind is silent. It is the true language of spirit. It is the 'still small voice' that guides us as we learn to perceive its insight.

WW


What do you mean by feeling a realization?
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Re: Try as I might, I can't shake the past.

Postby the key master » Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:08 am

tod wrote:Welcome Marty.

Marty wrote:Even in my moments of greatest presence and clarity, when I'm allowing thoughts to gently enter and leave my mind without identifying with them, I find that past conditioning still has a hold on me.


This illustrates that you are identifying as someone situated somewhere, ie, a person in time, even though you may think you are not. Thinking that you are someone somewhere is conditioning (belief).

I've always had low self-esteem. Through the teachings of Mr. Tolle, I've been trying to realise that the stories I identify with my 'self' are just that, stories. But that realisation doesn't seem to penetrate the deeply ingrained feeling of low self-worth that is always with me (even when I'm very present and not relating to the concept of a self).


Your feelings about yourself now are projections (or rather introjections) of your thoughts about yourself now. You may not be aware of these thoughts as you are focusing on the feelings.

This feeling has stolen all passion from my life. I have no sex drive. I cannot make art, which I know is one of my main life's purposes. It's as if I can't trust my instincts in any situation, even slightly. Through practicing presence I can achieve calmness (opposed to the usual painful depression) but life still feels grey and completely lacking in joy. I can only go on like this for so much longer before I'll have to turn to antidepressant medication.


You appear to not have grokked that Marty is in time but presence (awareness) is not. Primarily, you are not Marty, you are awareness, presence - and presence does not feel like anything.

And what you appear to be doing is forcing Marty to be present... And the only way Marty can be present is by thought thinking that it is (or putting itself) in some blankish calm sort of state - hence the greyness and absence of joy - a state of mind - not presence. Being present is being in mind, it is not presence.

What you primarily are is not Marty, you only think/assume you are Marty. To illustrate this, when you are deeply involved in some greatly pleasurable activity are you Marty? - or is Marty some thought that pops up at intervals that may be something like: "Wow, I'm having fun here" or "Now where did I put my trousers"...

With best wishes,


Nice clarity tod.
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Re: Try as I might, I can't shake the past.

Postby Marty » Sat Dec 05, 2015 10:31 pm

Thank you all for your kind and insightful replies.

To be honest, I feel a bit too in over my head to digest a lot of it. I'm going to continue meditating and building awareness, and I'll return to re-read this when it'll hopefully make more sense to me.
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Re: Try as I might, I can't shake the past.

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sun Dec 06, 2015 11:59 pm

Marty methods like EFT (tapping, bringing back to presence), EMDR - undoing attachment to reliving traumatic scenarios if that's the cause, and NLP - reframing the thinking - putting the past in perspective; are all very helpful in breaking these mental bonds.

eg: with EFT while tapping on pressure points if thoughts arise that are interpreted as making you unworthy, one might tap and respond with ...even if..... I am worthy

This reprograms the thought-interpretation-result cycles. In time the thought-interpretation-result becomes somewhat benign and are dismissed rather than held onto.

all the best, and ... no matter what... you are worthy - we all are :D
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
http://www.balancinginfluences.com
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Re: Try as I might, I can't shake the past.

Postby Webwanderer » Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:04 am

the key master wrote:My suggestion is that the sense of identity is the problem.

If your sense of identity seems to be a problem, then it likely is. I suggest exploring more clarity. It's not an either/or. It's simply about increasing clarity in our true nature.


Generating a feeling of worthiness is not the solution to feeling unworthy. One would need to be conscious of why they feel that way and what they feel unworthy about. You don't need a worthy identity for that, just self honesty and willingness.

You're saying that feeling your own true worth is not helpful in overcoming a feeling of believed unworth? Curious. Recognition of what we believe to generate feelings of low esteem is of course helpful so long as it's exposed as a misunderstanding of our true nature. And of course honesty is important. But it's also possible, and quite common, for those reasons to be challenging to find as they may be hidden deep in subconscious. In such case, recognizing one's value through recognizing one's true nature is quite effective.


What do you mean by feeling a realization?

What is your primary source of 'truth'? How something sounds to the logical mind, or how it feels when the mind is silent? What is insight and inspiration? What makes it distinguishable from logic? How does one tap into insight? What is one's methodology for perception and consideration when words are not primary in one's focus of attention? When one comments 'that makes sense', what is the reference to?

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Re: Try as I might, I can't shake the past.

Postby the key master » Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:42 am

Hey dub.

Dub said,
If your sense of identity seems to be a problem, then it likely is. I suggest exploring more clarity. It's not an either/or. It's simply about increasing clarity in our true nature.


Um, I was talking about the idea of gaining a new identity.

You said this,

If you want to gain a new sense of identity, one that feels your own genuine self worth, you have to get beyond that latent conditioning and back to a clear realization of your genuine true nature.


Getting the new identity isn't going to solve the problem of identification, or a feeling of low self worth. Being conscious of the conditions which generate such a feeling would be the end of the problem. Obviously if someone feels unworthy, it is because of how their experience unfolded coupled to how conditions are making them think and feel. There is no worthiness test to consciousness or being conscious. There is a readiness test, and it is in timeless unfolding as the opportunity to notice things. Gaining a new sense of identity tomorrow isn't the answer to today's identification.

Never the less, I vibe with your sentiment in that connecting one's inner purpose with outer purpose can provide emotional sustanence and positive feedback loops that give life a whole new meaning. Making that connection just has absolutely nothing to do with wanting to gain a new identity.

You're saying that feeling your own true worth is not helpful in overcoming a feeling of believed unworth? Curious. Recognition of what we believe to generate feelings of low esteem is of course helpful so long as it's exposed as a misunderstanding of our true nature. And of course honesty is important. But it's also possible, and quite common, for those reasons to be challenging to find as they may be hidden deep in subconscious. In such case, recognizing one's value through recognizing one's true nature is quite effective.


I don't know what you mean by a feeling of your own true worth. Is there a fake worth also? I'm saying being conscious of feelings of unworthiness often reveals such feelings to be projections of unresolved conflicts that have nothing to with the sense of worth on the surface and everything to do with cognitive dissonance from lack of resolution. I'm also saying that everyone on this forum is worthy to realize the essential nature of consciousness beyond the personal identity, which does not bring a personal feeling of worthiness, but the absence of the idea that one could not be worthy. Make sense?

What is your primary source of 'truth'? How something sounds to the logical mind, or how it feels when the mind is silent? What is insight and inspiration? What makes it distinguishable from logic? How does one tap into insight? What is one's methodology for perception and consideration when words are not primary in one's focus of attention? When one comments 'that makes sense', what is the reference to?


I am my own primary source of truth. Yes when things sound illogical I typically investigate further. And how I feel personally with a silent mind can bring deeper clarity from beyond the mind which is silent, sure. Insights are an effect of noticing. You may read something I say, and say, yea I already know that. I'm not teaching anybody, just showing them what they already know. Inspiration, wow. Inspiration is the vital force connected to a goal in a conscious way. Logic is the language of the dream. We utilize logic to open the channels of inspiration. One taps into insight by noticing the truth. I don't have a methodology for perception and consideration. I'm not sure what you mean.

If I say that makes sense, I'm normally talking about what someone else thinks. I can't make sense of illogical things, but I can make sense of why people think illogically. After all, my logic is infallible, hehe.

Great stuff though dubs enjoyed.
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Re: Try as I might, I can't shake the past.

Postby Webwanderer » Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:35 pm

the key master wrote:I don't know what you mean by a feeling of your own true worth. Is there a fake worth also?

This is why it's difficult to have a discussion with you. Is this kind of questioning more entertainment for you? What is low self esteem and feelings of unworthiness if not a mistaken sense of worth? It's just another straw man to take issue with.

It's the same with the 'new identity' reference. Another straw man. I've never met anyone who didn't have a sense of identity. Have you? Even those that claim so through the 'no self' meme simply create a new kind of identification.

There is however, an essence of who we are - unless you are buying into the brain created consciousness theory. It's that essence of being, that perspective, that is primary to all the thought created identifications we embodied beings adopt here in human form. It exists prior to and beyond the words we have to describe it. Therefore it can only be felt in some sense when words are silent. This sense of being transcends all words of identification yet remains a fundamental sense of being, of self, of true self - certainly truer self than most adopted thought constructs.

And it's not an either/or. It's a matter of increasing clarity of self, or of being. How much clarity can be gained? That seems to be an individual thing relating to one's interest, intent, and willingness to explore.

Not everyone can get to it. There is just too much mental noise and adopted programming for some. In the long run it doesn't matter. We're all going home eventually, and the experience of separation certainly has it's own value. Those who come to this forum and other's like it however, feel the call to understand their essence. They are the ones who may see beyond word and concept identities. These are fellow explorers who share in the joy of discovery and of awakening.

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Re: Try as I might, I can't shake the past.

Postby the key master » Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:37 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
the key master wrote:I don't know what you mean by a feeling of your own true worth. Is there a fake worth also?

This is why it's difficult to have a discussion with you. Is this kind of questioning more entertainment for you? What is low self esteem and feelings of unworthiness if not a mistaken sense of worth? It's just another straw man to take issue with.

It's the same with the 'new identity' reference. Another straw man. I've never met anyone who didn't have a sense of identity. Have you? Even those that claim so through the 'no self' meme simply create a new kind of identification.



I wouldn't call low self esteem a mistaken sense of worth. It's a very real feeling that Marty was really feeling, and there's very logical reasons why that feeling arises. Calling it an untrue feeling can lead to bypassing that feeling, which leads to unconsciousness and a logical sequence more deeply rooted in the identification I imagine you think you are pointing Marty beyond. I don't call realization a feeling, because realization isn't something that a person feels but something which is realized by seeing the personal identity for what it is. The reason it's difficult to have a conversation with me on this subject is because we're talking about two different things. You imagine we're talking about the same thing, and I can see that we aren't.

Have I ever met anyone without a sense of identity? The person is the identity. Have I ever met an identity without an identity? The question is nonsense, and demonstrates your own misunderstanding about what realization is.

There is however, an essence of who we are - unless you are buying into the brain created consciousness theory. It's that essence of being, that perspective, that is primary to all the thought created identifications we embodied beings adopt here in human form. It exists prior to and beyond the words we have to describe it. Therefore it can only be felt in some sense when words are silent.


The brain is in consciousness. Your body is in consciousness. Your body doesn't feel consciousness. It feels body sensations that you are conscious of. This is not rocket science.

This sense of being transcends all words of identification yet remains a fundamental sense of being, of self, of true self - certainly truer self than most adopted thought constructs.


Ok so the sense of being transcends the adopted thought constructs that make you feel separate. You feel at one with everything when you don't feel separate. Why call that a feeling of the separate person? Does any of this smell gamey to you?

Not everyone can get to it. There is just too much mental noise and adopted programming for some. In the long run it doesn't matter. We're all going home eventually, and the experience of separation certainly has it's own value. Those who come to this forum and other's like it however, feel the call to understand their essence. They are the ones who may see beyond word and concept identities. These are fellow explorers who share in the joy of discovery and of awakening.


I'm happy you're here WW.
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