When the now is peaceful but not what you want

This is the place to post whatever questions you have related to the teachings of Eckhart Tolle. The rest of us will do whatever we can to help you achieve a better understanding :)
Cristina
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:27 am

When the now is peaceful but not what you want

Post by Cristina » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:08 pm

Hi,

I feel at peace when thinking about now. But things are not happening as expected. So it is like being stuck in this moment that i do not want.

Im so confused.
I want to accept...but it is not what i want...
I would like to let go off my desires...but it feels like im letting go what makes me feel good.

What im doing wrong?

User avatar
kiki
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4488
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:55 pm
Location: Wherever "here" happens to be

Re: When the now is peaceful but not what you want

Post by kiki » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:34 am

When you are fully present there are no expectations; there are no preferences; there are no regrets; there are no aversions; there are no wants; there are no hopes or desires for things to be anything different than what is currently appearing. Peace isn't dependent upon thinking. In fact, it often draws you away from peace.

Creating an imagine in the mind of how things should be will keep you striving for something better because now doesn't measure up to that image most of the time. Or if it occasionally does measure up circumstances will inevitably change, often very quickly, and you'll go right back to wanting/hoping/desiring for something else, thereby completely missing the fullness of now and the inherent peace of your very being.

Ironically, even thinking about the now diminishes the conscious experience of the now/presence because attention is diverted onto thoughts rather than presence itself. Become present - full stop; that's it. Rest in/as the presence that is your true nature.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
---

AwakeTheCat
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:41 pm

Re: When the now is peaceful but not what you want

Post by AwakeTheCat » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:19 pm

kiki wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:34 am
When you are fully present there are no expectations; there are no preferences; there are no regrets; there are no aversions; there are no wants; there are no hopes or desires for things to be anything different than what is currently appearing. Peace isn't dependent upon thinking. In fact, it often draws you away from peace.

Creating an imagine in the mind of how things should be will keep you striving for something better because now doesn't measure up to that image most of the time. Or if it occasionally does measure up circumstances will inevitably change, often very quickly, and you'll go right back to wanting/hoping/desiring for something else, thereby completely missing the fullness of now and the inherent peace of your very being.

Ironically, even thinking about the now diminishes the conscious experience of the now/presence because attention is diverted onto thoughts rather than presence itself. Become present - full stop; that's it. Rest in/as the presence that is your true nature.
Kiki - Every word you say resonates. Yet, after I finish reading it, I find the lingering question in my head to be, "OK but now what..." I'm at peace. I feel great. But there are still in fact practical things I want to achieve. I think that's most people's block w spirituality comes in at.

So I meditated on this for a while. For a while, all I could do is run around in the close loop of: If I "want", I suffer. And I can see that. But if I didn't "want", then what would I "do"?

I simply couldn't answer that last question to any degree of sensible satisfaction. I notice I projected, catastrophized, postulated, etc, that is I noticed I was in the "future." So I come back to the now, and try again. It happens all over again. So I come back again. Yes, quite like the form of breath meditation. As I sit zero answers, it occurred to me...

It occurred to me to ask, who is this "I" that is "wanting." The answer is quite clear, the ego, the little me.

And then it occurred to me, the real "want" is what the big me wants, which is consciousness, which is source and life itself. My little "I's" wants are in a sense opposing or at least disregarding the big "I." It isn't so much what the little me want, the better question to put out there is what does life from me. I finally felt-understood (as oppose to intellectual understanding) what Tolle meant by "Life is the dancer, I am the dance."

The more I can be with the thought of "What does life want from me," the more at peace I felt. I realized then in my meditative state that I was willing to let things unfold as they need to. And simultaneously the answers to what am I supposed to do got simpler - I just have to do what's required of me this moment, and they are all very practical and concrete. For example, right now, I am finish writing this post. The moment after that would be me getting the green drink out of the fridge.

I think that's all there is to it. I wanted to share to see how this strikes you, Kiki, and if you have more colors to add as you must have also contemplated these questions.

Finally, I am aware that I'll probably forget this in my normal life over and over. But having had this understanding, I can always come back to it over and over until it is part of my normal way of being.

User avatar
kiki
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4488
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:55 pm
Location: Wherever "here" happens to be

Re: When the now is peaceful but not what you want

Post by kiki » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:21 pm

The more I can be with the thought of "What does life want from me," the more at peace I felt. I realized then in my meditative state that I was willing to let things unfold as they need to. And simultaneously the answers to what am I supposed to do got simpler - I just have to do what's required of me this moment, and they are all very practical and concrete. For example, right now, I am finish writing this post. The moment after that would be me getting the green drink out of the fridge.
Excellent! I couldn't have said it any better. The best part is that this is your insight - well done! Enjoy your drink. :wink:
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
---

User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6265
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: When the now is peaceful but not what you want

Post by Sighclone » Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:37 am

practical things I want to achieve.
Getting the green drink is one of these. Finishing the post is one of these. Is not "having a good relationship with my mother" one of these? How about "getting a good job as a (_____)." Or retiring without debt. Or "awakening."

Distinguishing authentic "nudges from the universe" from "selfish, greedy protective egoic gimmes" is important. Your patience as "the witness" allows the spiritual antennae to clarify the difference - a useful tool, for a while. But identity as "the witness" is a base camp, not the final step. The witness, and all earlier identities are always available as needed. But witnessing implies duality (the witness and that which is witnessed.) Fully awake, these merge. From Jean Klein:

"The witness is only a crutch to bring you to understand that you are not a doer. Once you
are free from doership there will be a change of axis and the energy once directed
towards the object will shift to the subject aspect, to the witnessing. In the end all
residues of subjectivity dissolve and the witness with them. You discover yourself as that
in which the object and subject exist, but you are neither one nor the other. Then there is
only living silence.”

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

AwakeTheCat
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:41 pm

Re: When the now is peaceful but not what you want

Post by AwakeTheCat » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:41 pm

Sighclone wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:37 am
practical things I want to achieve.
Getting the green drink is one of these. Finishing the post is one of these. Is not "having a good relationship with my mother" one of these? How about "getting a good job as a (_____)." Or retiring without debt. Or "awakening."

Distinguishing authentic "nudges from the universe" from "selfish, greedy protective egoic gimmes" is important. Your patience as "the witness" allows the spiritual antennae to clarify the difference - a useful tool, for a while. But identity as "the witness" is a base camp, not the final step. The witness, and all earlier identities are always available as needed. But witnessing implies duality (the witness and that which is witnessed.) Fully awake, these merge. From Jean Klein:

"The witness is only a crutch to bring you to understand that you are not a doer. Once you
are free from doership there will be a change of axis and the energy once directed
towards the object will shift to the subject aspect, to the witnessing. In the end all
residues of subjectivity dissolve and the witness with them. You discover yourself as that
in which the object and subject exist, but you are neither one nor the other. Then there is
only living silence.”

Andy
@Sighclone - I'm not entirely following what you are saying to me. If you can clarify what you are saying, I'd like to hear it. Thanks!

User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6265
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: When the now is peaceful but not what you want

Post by Sighclone » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:12 pm

ATC: Mainly I'm validating your experience of going with the flow:
I just have to do what's required of me this moment, and they are all very practical and concrete. For example, right now, I am finish writing this post. The moment after that would be me getting the green drink out of the fridge.

Sorry about the divergence into a discussion of the Witness - that's an esoteric transit stop, noticed by some, but not necessary. It is the flow that is important....the "'what's required of me at this moment." Some people, however, are so hooked by their ego that an egoic demand ("more for me, less for you" etc etc) can surface as a "what's required of me" nudge from the Universe when it is not. Well-tuned spiritual antennae can distinguish them.

I was also reminding you that "what's required of me this moment" may be to plan a career move, or to patch up a broken relationship, not just something simple like finishing a post.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

AwakeTheCat
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:41 pm

Re: When the now is peaceful but not what you want

Post by AwakeTheCat » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:56 pm

@ Sighclone - Got it. Thank you for the nuanced discussion and making me examine this. I am happy to report that I do mean this very moment. I'm definitely not talking about some goal or objective. I literally mean, what is in the here and now that I can sense I'm supposed to do.

Words are tricky, aren't they? As I paid attention to possible different interpretations of my written words, I can see that I cannot convey ultimately what I'm experiencing. I can get close to it. I can say it a hundred different ways, but the IT is very much only a touch point known to me via a feel/sense/knowing inside of my body. I suppose that's what makes spiritual conversations both enlightening and frustrating. It just depends on where the person is at.

Good to make your acquaintance. Looking forward to more exchanges down the road (in this illusory medium we co-mind-habituate in).

User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6265
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: When the now is peaceful but not what you want

Post by Sighclone » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:02 am

Great! Now that I understand your meaning in the Present Moment, let me tell you the story of my 'awakening,' it's directly related.

My wife brought home PON about 11 years ago and said "you might like this." Like kiki, I studied and practiced TM for many years (since 1974.) And had been searching for Truth, off and on since then. My question was not the typical "who am I?" but rather "what's Really Going On Here?" I read about the first 30 pp of PON and recognized that the TM people had downplayed the vital necessity of recognizing the importance of The Present Moment. (The Power of Now.) So I sat in a chair and decided to experience, as intimately as possible the very present moment...I mean right frigging NOW, not one ten thousandths of a second ago, but Right Now.

Poof. I was transported in that moment. It felt as though I had suddenly let the clutch out fully and was actually moving. I was utterly changed...the experience was not the great "I AM" but rather simply a vibrant "amness." "So this is what is Really Happening, and there is no "little me" in any of it". I did recognize, even before getting out of the chair that I was going to have to integrate this experience with the "rest of my life as 'Andy'." Within two days I had discovered this forum and joined, after PM-ing kiki and others asking for help integrating my blow-out awakening with the rest of my life, because there was certainly nobody in my group of family or friends who could begin to help. I was able to stop working for six months. I bought and read about 200 books, and spent about two hours a day pounding out posts here, became a Moderator, made some mistakes, went to the first Science and NonDuality Conference, made friends with a number of current spiritual teachers, and finally was able to resume my work as a rural property appraiser in eastern Washington State.

So.....I understand the importance of The Present Moment!

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

User avatar
eputkonen
Posts: 480
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:53 pm
Location: Mound, MN
Contact:

Re: When the now is peaceful but not what you want

Post by eputkonen » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:10 pm

Cristina wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:08 pm
I feel at peace when thinking about now. But things are not happening as expected. So it is like being stuck in this moment that i do not want.

Im so confused.
I want to accept...but it is not what i want...
I would like to let go off my desires...but it feels like im letting go what makes me feel good.

What im doing wrong?
I would really look at that more deeply...you say you would like to get go of your want, but it feels like your letting go what makes you feel good, but you are not feeling good...instead you feel like being stuck in this moment that you do not want.

Also, if what-is (i.e. reality) is not something you want...how successful have you been in fighting and denying reality? It is what is. It doesn't matter whether you want it or not...it is. And so fighting and denying reality just makes reality feel less good. It never feels good to be in conflict with reality.
Namaste,

~ Eric Putkonen
@EngagedNondual on Twitter
Blog at http://www.EngagedNonduality.com - Insights into Nondualism and Living Awake & Engaged

AwakeTheCat
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:41 pm

Re: When the now is peaceful but not what you want

Post by AwakeTheCat » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:41 pm

Sighclone wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:02 am
Great! Now that I understand your meaning in the Present Moment, let me tell you the story of my 'awakening,' it's directly related.

My wife brought home PON about 11 years ago and said "you might like this." Like kiki, I studied and practiced TM for many years (since 1974.) And had been searching for Truth, off and on since then. My question was not the typical "who am I?" but rather "what's Really Going On Here?" I read about the first 30 pp of PON and recognized that the TM people had downplayed the vital necessity of recognizing the importance of The Present Moment. (The Power of Now.) So I sat in a chair and decided to experience, as intimately as possible the very present moment...I mean right frigging NOW, not one ten thousandths of a second ago, but Right Now.

Poof. I was transported in that moment. It felt as though I had suddenly let the clutch out fully and was actually moving. I was utterly changed...the experience was not the great "I AM" but rather simply a vibrant "amness." "So this is what is Really Happening, and there is no "little me" in any of it". I did recognize, even before getting out of the chair that I was going to have to integrate this experience with the "rest of my life as 'Andy'." Within two days I had discovered this forum and joined, after PM-ing kiki and others asking for help integrating my blow-out awakening with the rest of my life, because there was certainly nobody in my group of family or friends who could begin to help. I was able to stop working for six months. I bought and read about 200 books, and spent about two hours a day pounding out posts here, became a Moderator, made some mistakes, went to the first Science and NonDuality Conference, made friends with a number of current spiritual teachers, and finally was able to resume my work as a rural property appraiser in eastern Washington State.

So.....I understand the importance of The Present Moment!

Andy
Andy - Nice to properly (in the greatest sense) to meet you via this forum. I feel the envy rising in me as I read your post. Haha. Yes I am aware that was my ego saying hello. :)

I want to experience the Present Moment so much. I am actively trying to get myself there. So far as I can tell:

1) Although ET says meditation isn't needed as a practice, I find that meditation really teaches about focusing attention, and I need work in that area. So I am dedicating time to meditate and devoting at least a portion of my sitting to just following the breath

2) After my breath meditation, I then search in myself places where I feel pain. I might test out a belief statement or a situation that gives me angst in life. Then I witness the feeling that it comes up in my body. I watch it till it dissolves, which happens 80-90%. Spontaneously I'd get insights from it too sometimes.

3) There was another thread where Kiki suggested that I really pay attention to all the ways the ego retains its position as the master. I am working through it as it happens. More and more in real time I catch myself. I may still "do" the thing, but I'm aware of the compulsion and I examine it later. Instead of saying to myself "that's just the way I am." Now I take the view, that's a place of attachment and let's see if we can find some space with that.

4) I try to practice acceptance as much as possible. It always starts with centering attention, then sensing my own presence, and then allow that presence to do the accepting. This is a crucial point I didn't understand in the past. I tried for decades to "accept" with my mind or ego. And it just doesn't work. The funny thing that also happens a lot after I come to an acceptance of a pressure point or pain is that I would smile irrepressibly. It's as if I finally see my own folly here. And there's no judgment, just oh that was so silly of me. Haha. I love those switch on's and they are happening more and more often.

So that's where I am at in my journey. I look forward to getting there, not as an objective, but as a sincere wish. In any case, I will continue to walk the path just because it is helping me to be a happier human being.

I haven't gotten to the point you and Kiki talked about where the ego just withdrew. I'll keep sensing my way there. Any help would always be welcome though I am fully aware that ultimately it is my sincere wish and effort that will get me there. To be fully awake, my goodness, what amazingness would that be. :)

User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6265
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: When the now is peaceful but not what you want

Post by Sighclone » Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:59 am

Meditation may not be necessary. Apparently it was not for ET, or a couple of other teachers who "shifted" rather spontaneously. But stilling the mind is very helpful, meditation stills the mind, etc.

Awareness of the source of psychological pain and dwelling there is useful. Cognitive techniques such as Byron Katie's "the work" are helpful, also The Sedona Method. After my big Event, old stuff was still there, but it had to survive the cauldron of Presence to continue to affect me. And some of them did, for a while. Old habits and embedded beliefs have deep roots and can arise...but they arise into a new you. Acceptance is yielding but not surrendering. Disowning old fixations is not the mechanism that helps them to dissolve.

I particularly like how you accept with Presence, not with Ego. The ego really doesn't accept anything that doesn't make it stronger. Recognizing old fixations and smiling is great. For me, envy was one that came raging back after awakening...I could feel it arising. Once I just pulled my bike over and sat down. "Wow, that is a really big old fixation"...(mainly looking at fancy houses.) It certainly was a secret part of my ego. Now I can look at a house and admire the design without yearning...I am accepting my "place in life," with increasing joy and gratitude...that is, the relative life I lead...my Andyness.

A sense of being a unique individual does not vanish. Going with the flow that is vital and natural to support that individual life is something I sense you are finding easier and easier!

You might enjoy Gary Weber's blog:
http://happinessbeyondthought.blogspot.com/

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

AwakeTheCat
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:41 pm

Re: When the now is peaceful but not what you want

Post by AwakeTheCat » Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:35 am

Hi Andy, Thanks for the response. It makes a lot of sense.
Sighclone wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:59 am
After my big Event, old stuff was still there, but it had to survive the cauldron of Presence to continue to affect me. ...Acceptance is yielding but not surrendering.
What do you mean by the "cauldron of Presence"? As in some of your old habits just burned off and others still came back up but to a lesser degree? And can you explain that line regarding acceptance being yielding and surrendering is not so? There's not much difference to me between the two words. I though the word "surrendering" is just usually used to describe an acceptance of something catastrophic. Can you give your view on how the two differs to you?
Sighclone wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:59 am
I particularly like how you accept with Presence, not with Ego. The ego really doesn't accept anything that doesn't make it stronger.
Haha. That was a good one. I don't know why that's not said more explicitly by ET. It is something I see a lot in the world. People think they are accepting when they are just suppressing or resigning. And the difference is really that the ego cannot accept. I try to point it out to friends when they do that.

So back to the "big event," I am a bit confused as to what it means to be awakened now that I see you still have back and forth. Isn't it's one of those things that you couldn't un-see what you've seen? If we still slip back afterwards, then is it more like adopting a new way of being? So like you, when you noticed envy came up, you were strong enough to work through that. And if something else were to arise, you'll work through that.

In this sense, "awakening" and being "unconscious" is really like being on a continuum rather than clearly defined stages of one's consciousness. What's your take on that?

Thanks! And I just read about your surgery. Hope you are recovering well.

User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6265
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: When the now is peaceful but not what you want

Post by Sighclone » Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:03 pm

ATC -

Presence is a cauldron. No fixations can survive in it while it is fully operational. But old "subconscious beliefs" are neurophysiological patterns buried very deeply. Awakening (at least for me) was the sudden recognition that "I'm not, ultimately, who I though I was at all." It was a sudden recognition that there is a "ground/no ground" of Being that includes "little me," and everything else manifested, embodied, and imaginable, and that "whoever I really am, whatever consciousness I possess, is very much in touch with that." That recognition has never wavered for a moment. However, old dysfunctions are deep habits. Their emergence, however, is brought into bold relief by my shift. I can get pissed of at a rude driver, and feel that anger arising. But as it arises, so does the Witness of it. I almost seem to "step outside of myself," as it arises. I can choose to shout, wave my fist, or let the whole event settle into Presence, which generally just happens. Remember when ET talks about ducks in a pond just shaking off a little kerfuffle? It's kind of like that. The envy fixation was deeper, but "just Being with it," was totally sufficient to make me smile and let it fall away...took a couple of months.

I am a firm believer in psychotherapy, even for those who have had an awakening experience. Stuff percolates up from our unconscious. But without the abiding sense of Presence, there is no cauldron for it to vaporize in. And the 'vaporizing' may be temporary for really deep stuff. Personalities do not change fundamentally, but they temper. Mooji talks about this. Deep awareness that arrives as a result of good therapy opens the door to spiritual discovery, mainly by clarifying "I'm not that, or that or that." (Which in nondual self-inquiry terms is "neti, neti, neti.")

Because my shift was sudden, I cannot comment on from experience on a "gradual shift." But I do not see any reason why a person cannot look back at the last day of his or her life and compare that day with a day ten years ago and say "yes, I'm older and wiser, but also, I have a relatively new deep appreciation for Being / Source and my direct immersion in it." Adya had 3 awakenings. Most teachers I know have had a sudden shift, or "breakthrough." I guess the suddenness of that event would relate to their cognitive awareness of it as a possibility. Jac O'Keeffe and ET had no clear concept of it before it happened. You and I, however, are/were aware of it as a possibility. I did not know what "it might feel like for me" until it happened. Nor did I foresee the challenge of integration of that event with the rest of my life...fortunately I had the resources to put my work on hold. Gary Weber shifted in the middle of a yoga pose, and went off to work, with "no thinking going on at all" and did just fine. And he was COO of a big company.

I do try to use words carefully. "To yield is to conquer" is an old Buddhist phrase that basically assumes Presence. Surrendering means letting the "old fixation" take over your consciousness of the moment and bring grief, guilt and blame along with it. I'm pleased you didn't let that distinction slip past you, thanks for the question.

Surgery recovery going well - I'm a road cyclist, and almost have enough flexion to get back on the bike.

I encourage you to read other teachers. Not to say that ET is not a great favorite, but other voices are useful. Nisargadatta and Ramana Maharshi are important foundations.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

AwakeTheCat
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:41 pm

Re: When the now is peaceful but not what you want

Post by AwakeTheCat » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:30 am

Hi Andy -

Thanks for the well thought out reply. Very appreciated.
Sighclone wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:03 pm
Presence is a cauldron. No fixations can survive in it while it is fully operational. But old "subconscious beliefs" are neurophysiological patterns buried very deeply. Awakening (at least for me) was the sudden recognition that "I'm not, ultimately, who I though I was at all." It was a sudden recognition that there is a "ground/no ground" of Being that includes "little me," and everything else manifested, embodied, and imaginable, and that "whoever I really am, whatever consciousness I possess, is very much in touch with that." That recognition has never wavered for a moment. However, old dysfunctions are deep habits. Their emergence, however, is brought into bold relief by my shift. I can get pissed of at a rude driver, and feel that anger arising. But as it arises, so does the Witness of it. I almost seem to "step outside of myself," as it arises. I can choose to shout, wave my fist, or let the whole event settle into Presence, which generally just happens. Remember when ET talks about ducks in a pond just shaking off a little kerfuffle? It's kind of like that. The envy fixation was deeper, but "just Being with it," was totally sufficient to make me smile and let it fall away...took a couple of months.
That's a very clear way of putting it. Thanks. The last few days of my meditation, I constantly found myself engaged in the same spot with whatever resistance I was encountering. The same question kept coming up in me was "How do I just drop this?" "This" being the resistance.

I noticed that it was as if I kept "forgetting" or kept going back to being "unconscious" when a new stressor would come on. Literally, I would draw a blank. It would take me a while each time to find my way back to accepting/witnessing/etc. until I can simultaneously recognize that the resistance was an attachment or identification. That is, the stressor was signaling me that I had lost connection with clear awareness and it was time to reconnect to my sense of presence to see through the attachment. This remembrance alone is worth the price of admission so to speak. Because the automatic reaction in me is to panic and go into a story of poor-me having to deal with so much internal strife.
Sighclone wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:03 pm
I am a firm believer in psychotherapy, even for those who have had an awakening experience. Stuff percolates up from our unconscious. But without the abiding sense of Presence, there is no cauldron for it to vaporize in. And the 'vaporizing' may be temporary for really deep stuff. Personalities do not change fundamentally, but they temper. Mooji talks about this. Deep awareness that arrives as a result of good therapy opens the door to spiritual discovery, mainly by clarifying "I'm not that, or that or that." (Which in nondual self-inquiry terms is "neti, neti, neti.")
I agree w the spirit of what you write. A proper sponsorship can definitely help to bridge a sudden spiritual realization with the body-mind that's having to catching up. I'm glad that it worked for you. Personally, I have some reservations about modern psychotherapy. They tend to focus on problem talking, and often resort to willpower. One seems to retort the "my stories" much, while the other connotes egoic suppression to me. My other reservation is that people emanate different levels of energy/awareness, plus their own set of cognitive biases. I often find it more efficient to talk to like minded folks or go into my self-inquiry.

Speaking of "neti neti neti", I can relate here. I had a very hard time dealing with people who are negative. I blamed it my being too sensitive and take on other people's energy. Labels like "empaths" were thrown around in pop culture, and I started taking them on. They didn't make the problem I was experiencing go away, they became a poor-me identity problem overtime.

Then I started noticing that I believed my feelings. It was a closed circuit TV. I felt it and therefore I believed it. Underlying it all was a major belief that my feelings are me. I then saw the same problems not just in me but in my friends as well when they get "too emotional." I made a conscientious effort to disidentify from my feelings. Allow, witness (see through), but disidentify. I still have resistance for sure, and will continue to untie the belief structures underpinning them. But it massively helped. I now see it as a way for me to practice acceptance and a way for me to know that I am still attached to a victimhood identity.
Sighclone wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:03 pm
Because my shift was sudden, I cannot comment on from experience on a "gradual shift." But I do not see any reason why a person cannot look back at the last day of his or her life and compare that day with a day ten years ago and say "yes, I'm older and wiser, but also, I have a relatively new deep appreciation for Being / Source and my direct immersion in it." Adya had 3 awakenings. Most teachers I know have had a sudden shift, or "breakthrough." I guess the suddenness of that event would relate to their cognitive awareness of it as a possibility. Jac O'Keeffe and ET had no clear concept of it before it happened. You and I, however, are/were aware of it as a possibility. I did not know what "it might feel like for me" until it happened. Nor did I foresee the challenge of integration of that event with the rest of my life...fortunately I had the resources to put my work on hold. Gary Weber shifted in the middle of a yoga pose, and went off to work, with "no thinking going on at all" and did just fine. And he was COO of a big company.
Ah yes. Just to be clear, I have no idea what process I am involved in personally. Gradual or whatnot. Really, I do this stuff because I am driven to do it. Because of the things that I could not make sense of, because of the make up of my set of particular circumstances. And I am sure there are other reasons beyond my fathoming. I simply have an intense drive for freedom from the self inflicted torture.

I have learned from many "teachers" in the past. In the end, I find the best teacher is the one within and speaking to high-conscious folks. I tread lightly these days. I find that what I really need help on is less so on intellectual understanding, but more on connecting to it on a a felt-understanding level. Does that make any sense to you at all?
Sighclone wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:03 pm
I do try to use words carefully. "To yield is to conquer" is an old Buddhist phrase that basically assumes Presence. Surrendering means letting the "old fixation" take over your consciousness of the moment and bring grief, guilt and blame along with it. I'm pleased you didn't let that distinction slip past you, thanks for the question.
To yield is to conquer. So when you said "acceptance is yielding but not surrendering," you are saying "Acceptance is conquering?" And then "not surrendering" means to not let old fixations take over consciousness?

Put it together: Acceptance is conquering, and don't let old fixation take over consciousness.

Very cool! :)

May you continue to recover well, Andy!

ATC

Post Reply