Why change?

This is the place to post whatever questions you have related to the teachings of Eckhart Tolle. The rest of us will do whatever we can to help you achieve a better understanding :)
Post Reply
DmitryDV1
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:05 pm

Why change?

Post by DmitryDV1 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:23 pm

Hello, everyone.

I have a question. As far as I understood correctly that there's noting wrong in now. Everything just prefect as it is. So, why develop awairness? I am stuffer because of my ego... It doesn't matter.

Trying to develop awairness I am declaring that this moment (and myself) needs to be developed and "corrected".

So, what's the point? Avoid pain? Dissolve ego? Pain should be eliminated? Ego should be eliminated?

I am confused. Isn't that we are trying to change life for better? Again. But from different (more subtle) perspective...?

User avatar
Webwanderer
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6674
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:03 am

Re: Why change?

Post by Webwanderer » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:38 pm

Welcome to the forum Dmitry. I'll offer my take. Others will likely have their own unique view.
DmitryDV1 wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:23 pm
I have a question. As far as I understood correctly that there's noting wrong in now. Everything just prefect as it is. So, why develop awairness?
Why develop awareness? For the same reason you asked this question. To gain knowledge. Curiosity is the primary driver of a quest to know more, and through that knowing - to be more. You just demonstrated this natural curiosity in action, as well as its fulfillment in whatever knowledge you gained.

When you posit 'there's nothing wrong in now', it must be understood from the appropriate context. That context where there is nothing 'wrong' is a context from a larger, more spiritual, view of life. It sees human life as an exploration into a particular type of experience that, from that larger view, is uniformly valuable. Thus there is nothing wrong in value no matter is form.

In a different context, where there are internal rules on right and wrong, we create beliefs on how things 'should' be. When those 'shoulds' are violated, we feel a negative emotional reaction that we dislike. So, things that cause the feelings we don't like, we judge as wrong. This is our human context.

One of the places curiosity may take us is through exploring the distinction of what our human perspective judged as wrong, and the relief that comes from the larger context view, where no-thing is wrong - where there is only expansion through the knowledge gained from the experience of our personally molded human perspective.

So, what's the point? Avoid pain? Dissolve ego? Pain should be eliminated? Ego should be eliminated?
Again there is context that needs to be considered.

So from our human context: "Avoid pain?" Generally speaking, I say yes. Pain, and to a greater extent, emotions in general, are our primary guide in navigating our human experience. So if you are feeling pain, let it teach you. Be curious about its nature and what triggers it. Somewhere it's likely to be exposed as your own creation. And that's a good thing. If we create the triggers that cause us pain, we can deal with them more effectively.

Eliminate ego? That's likely not possible. And in my estimation, not even desirable. I suggest a curiosity about ego. My take is that ego is a belief and an identification with certain thought constructs about self built up over a lifetime. Awakening is to clearly recognize that fact. I am a man. I am Asian. I am a doctor. I am tall. I am fat. etc. etc. etc. The only part of any of these statements that is true in the Larger Context is "I Am". All else is ego construct designed to form a specific context to the human experience.

Now, there are all kinds of thought and emotional structures that are naturally a part of the ego. None of this is a bad thing. The difference is in recognizing ego for what it is, or living life believing that this egoic thought construct is who and what you actually are.

When one awakens to the nature of one's own ego identity, it represents an expansion of perspective that is infinitely helpful in navigating our daily lives. Ego exists for a reason. If there is anything to kill off when it comes to ego, it is the attachment to it as an unaware identity. All the identifiers we hold are functionally useful in all the relationships and conditions we encounter as we move through life. See it for what it is and life becomes a lot more fun. The main thing is to break the attachment, not kill it off.

What would you like to do in this human life? To a large extent, ego is your vehicle to get there. Just know it for what it is.

WW

User avatar
turiya
Posts: 202
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:14 pm
Location: CA

Re: Why change?

Post by turiya » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:00 am

Here's my take:

If you're suffering at all, then you aren't directly experiencing that "there's nothing wrong in the now. Everything is just perfect as it is." So, although it intellectually makes sense to you that everything is "all good", it's not true for you in your experience.

Until you directly experience Awareness (i.e. actually become aware that you are aware), then those statements are just concepts that you either believe in or don't believe in.

So, why become aware of Awareness? To directly experience/truly know the Truth... which puts an end to suffering.
DmitryDV1 wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:23 pm
I am stuffer because of my ego... It doesn't matter.
If your suffering really (experientially) didn't matter to you, then would you still be suffering? :wink:
DmitryDV1 wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:23 pm
Trying to develop awairness I am declaring that this moment (and myself) needs to be developed and "corrected".
In my view, Awareness doesn't need to be "developed" or "attained" or "achieved." You (me, everyone) are already aware. Awareness is what Is, here and now. So, all we're "doing" is becoming aware of Awareness... which is another way of saying "we're appreciating what is, right here and now."

It's not this moment or yourself that needs to be "corrected." The only thing that needs "correcting" or "changing" is one's inattention to what actually is.

That point of all this: to directly experience what actually is.

(And when you do that, it's impossible to suffer. :D)
“We ourselves are not an illusory part of Reality; rather are we Reality itself illusorily conceived.” - Wei Wu Wei

User avatar
Loffe
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:24 am

Re: Why change?

Post by Loffe » Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:47 pm

Why change? The short answer is: why not? What is your warmest memory from childhood? Do you remember how it feels? Freedom, no worries, life is open before you. This is all fade away when egoistic mind took over your life. But you know it's possible to feel and live like this again. Now. Why not try? Or what else more important you have on your mind :)
Loffe

Dcdc
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:01 pm

Re: Why change?

Post by Dcdc » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:18 pm

Here's my take as well:

If I understood right (and I'm sorry if it's not the case), you think that you are something "solid/permanent" and, in that context, are asking what is the point of "changing".

But you are not something solid/permanent. You are not your ego. Your ego is a product of a mental operation that uses your memory to build a character.

You, as the rest of the universe as well, are just happening. You have this illusion of being something solid/permanent also because of the sample size of time, but if you increases this you'll see that yesterday you (maybe) were iron and carbon, today you are "this" you are seeing happening and, tomorrow, "you" may be something else.

The logic of separation between "things" and the idea that exists solid/permanent things happens only in our head, when we lable all. "This is a hand"; "That is a chair". In the real universe, everything is happening without stop and nothing is really solid and permanent.

It's not about changing, because all the universe is changing all the time. You are not the person that started to read that answer, for example, and I'm not talking in a "romantic" way. The door of your room that you see as something solid is exchanging material with the air all the time, for example.

So, it's about two things: (i) realize that; (ii) bring your self to the present moment and "enjoy/live" this.

cobra22
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 11:18 am

Re: Why change?

Post by cobra22 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:28 am

DmitryDV1 wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:23 pm
Trying to develop awairness I am declaring that this moment (and myself) needs to be developed and "corrected".
If you feel that this moment needs to be corrected then you are not actually living in the moment. Also, it's not this exact moment that you feel needs to be corrected; rather it's an experience of your immediate past and future. Once you recognize this then you are instantly in the moment. There's nothing that needs to happen in between not being in the moment and being in the moment.

The issue is, however, HOW do we zero in on this moment? If we feel like we're not present then we possibly have a desire to be present. We may think to ourselves "okay, let's observe our thoughts or something and see if that help us become present" and then we proceed to just try to observe. The problem is that thought would have come from the ego and there would have been some time and preparation in between having that thought and then settling down and observing.

If we're looking to be present then we're not present. Conversely, we may be not being present but also not looking to be present, however we will be looking to the future for something, which is the same as looking to be present because 'looking to be present' is seeking to be present in the future.

DmitryDV1
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:05 pm

Re: Why change?

Post by DmitryDV1 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:27 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:38 pm
Welcome to the forum Dmitry. I'll offer my take. Others will likely have their own unique view.
Thanks.
In a different context, where there are internal rules on right and wrong, we create beliefs on how things 'should' be. When those 'shoulds' are violated, we feel a negative emotional reaction that we dislike. So, things that cause the feelings we don't like, we judge as wrong. This is our human context.
Agree, and I feel that "awareness" some kind of another "should". Another label, another concept.
My take is that ego is a belief and an identification with certain thought constructs about self built up over a lifetime. Awakening is to clearly recognize that fact. I am a man. I am Asian. I am a doctor. I am tall. I am fat. etc. etc. etc. The only part of any of these statements that is true in the Larger Context is "I Am". All else is ego construct designed to form a specific context to the human experience.

I am sorry, isn't that I "I gained awareness" is another ego attribute?
Now, there are all kinds of thought and emotional structures that are naturally a part of the ego. None of this is a bad thing. The difference is in recognizing ego for what it is, or living life believing that this egoic thought construct is who and what you actually are.
Maybe. But is it possible that anything could be separated from ego? My desire to be in the moment (aware) is product of my ego, isn't it? My desire to avoid pain is product of my ego isn't it?

Wait a minute, then, who am I and where is MY desires? :shock: Sorry... Seems like trying to understand I make things more difficult.
turiya wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:00 am
In my view, Awareness doesn't need to be "developed" or "attained" or "achieved." You (me, everyone) are already aware. Awareness is what Is, here and now. So, all we're "doing" is becoming aware of Awareness... which is another way of saying "we're appreciating what is, right here and now."

It's not this moment or yourself that needs to be "corrected." The only thing that needs "correcting" or "changing" is one's inattention to what actually is.

That point of all this: to directly experience what actually is.

(And when you do that, it's impossible to suffer. :D)
Oh, this clears point a bit for me.
Loffe wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:47 pm
Why change? The short answer is: why not? What is your warmest memory from childhood? Do you remember how it feels? Freedom, no worries, life is open before you. This is all fade away when egoistic mind took over your life. But you know it's possible to feel and live like this again. Now. Why not try? Or what else more important you have on your mind :)
I bet this approach for me and my ego is nothing but egoistic point - to become careless and always "happy". No pain. Eternal pleasure.
Dcs wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:18 pm
If I understood right (and I'm sorry if it's not the case), you think that you are something "solid/permanent" and, in that context, are asking what is the point of "changing".
Not exactly. I mean that if this moment perfect as it is (even if I don't aware of it) then why try to became aware. I am good not being aware in it. But thanks for the point.
cobra22 wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:28 am
If you feel that this moment needs to be corrected then you are not actually living in the moment. Also, it's not this exact moment that you feel needs to be corrected; rather it's an experience of your immediate past and future. Once you recognize this then you are instantly in the moment. There's nothing that needs to happen in between not being in the moment and being in the moment.
Interesting trick. Seems like it's my case.
If we feel like we're not present then we possibly have a desire to be present. We may think to ourselves "okay, let's observe our thoughts or something and see if that help us become present" and then we proceed to just try to observe. The problem is that thought would have come from the ego and there would have been some time and preparation in between having that thought and then settling down and observing.
Ok. It's very close to what I feel. What to do?

Dcdc
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:01 pm

Re: Why change?

Post by Dcdc » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:31 pm

DmitryDV1 wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:27 pm
Dcs wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:18 pm
If I understood right (and I'm sorry if it's not the case), you think that you are something "solid/permanent" and, in that context, are asking what is the point of "changing".
Not exactly. I mean that if this moment perfect as it is (even if I don't aware of it) then why try to became aware. I am good not being aware in it. But thanks for the point.
Because, if you/your manifestation/your body/your "event that is happening" is not aware, you/"it" won't "live" in this moment as you said (that, by the way, is the real world). You'll live in a fake world; a mental noisy world that can create and/or tell you endless stories and scenarios that just aren't happening.

And, in my current opinion, it's not about the present moment necessarily being "perfect" all the time or something like that. It's just that the present moment, in most cases, tends to be peaceful and calm. If the present moment is about, for example, you being in front of a wild animal that can kill you, maybe it will be an agitaded moment as they tend to be when we live in our mental world as well. However, these moments are rare. Most of time, yes, the real world is a lot easier and simplier than the ones that our mind creates.

These are the reasons to try to became aware. Give a lot of tries and see :- )

Post Reply