Nature and NoMind

This is the place to post whatever questions you have related to the teachings of Eckhart Tolle. The rest of us will do whatever we can to help you achieve a better understanding :)

Nature and NoMind

Postby phil » Sat Nov 26, 2005 2:17 am

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Last edited by phil on Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby summer » Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:07 am

Hi Phil,
welcome to this community.
Perhaps we can see our brains as just another muscle in the body?

I don't think that there are any lines that can be drawn in presence. It's very nature is it's refusal to be limited or defined.

It is the source by which the mind can even think or imagine all of the things that it does.

I love squirrels, but have never heard of anyone that raises them before. Now I am really curious :) Do you have a home for them to live in, and how does that work?
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Postby phil » Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:21 am

Thank you for the welcome Summer. Again, I'm quite pleased to find this forum.

summer wrote:It is the source by which the mind can even think or imagine all of the things that it does.


OK, yes. How might we regard the fact that for thousands of years, for billions of people, 99% of the time the source is obscured as we wander "lost in thought"?

Nature designed us this way, we had nothing to do with it, best I can tell.

So I wonder, are our illusions a malady that must be cured, or are they, like everything else in nature, there for a reason?

An example: What makes childhood wonderful? Illusions and ignorance! :-) As adults we work hard to preserve illusions and ignorance for our kids, at least for a time.

In one of Tolle's books, he remarked that nature needs us as much as we need nature, and that we are nature's way of becoming concious of itself. When I'm in nature, reaching for nomind, I sometimes wonder if I should stop tinkering with the system. :-)

A question, not a point...

summer wrote:I love squirrels, but have never heard of anyone that raises them before. Now I am really curious :)


Our nest is here, you're always welcome to stop by and chew some nuts with us: http://Squirrels-For-You.com

Squirrels are ALWAYS enthusiastically in the moment, they make great gurus! :-)
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Postby kiki » Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:54 pm

I would say that the uniquely human quality of thinking and reasoning is just fine, I wouldn't want to do away with it. The "problem" with thinking, however, becomes apparent when there arises the identification with thought as belonging to "me", when there is the forgetting that thinking arises within one's real nature - awareness. That's when we become lost to what we really are and believe we are saddled with so many problems -problems which disappear when one's true nature is rediscovered.

"So I wonder, are our illusions a malady that must be cured, or are they, like everything else in nature, there for a reason?"

Illusions are what permits the one consciousness to rediscover itself in countlessly unique ways. They are the fodder of consciousness in its playful nature. Awakening is simply the seeing of the illusions as just that, illusions. Once they are known to be illusions they can be playfully engaged in.

BTW, welcome to the board phil.

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Postby phil » Sat Nov 26, 2005 10:53 pm

Thank you for the welcome kiki. I appreciate your reply.

kiki wrote:Illusions are what permits the one consciousness to rediscover itself in countlessly unique ways. They are the fodder of consciousness in its playful nature.


Ok, insanity (as described by Tolle) as playfulness. Yes, Nature has a rowdy sense of humor sometimes, eh?

Please elaborate on your observation if you care to.

If Nature is using illusion, insanity, and destruction in a playfully creative manner, I'd like to play along, and not declare myself capable of creating a better game.
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Postby kiki » Sun Nov 27, 2005 1:12 am

What Tolle describes as "insanity" is the perspective of one who is viewing things in a dualistic manner. When the dualsim is seen through everything is what it is. ET is pointing people to nondualism, but he still describes much of what is happening as "insanity" because most of those he is talking to are still trapped in dualism. To awareness one situation is no better or worse than another - after all, what can harm awareness in any way?

"If Nature is using illusion, insanity, and destruction in a playfully creative manner, I'd like to play along, and not declare myself capable of creating a better game."

Who is this "I" that would declare anything, that would play along with anything? When there is the clear seeing of what you really are (awareness) then there no longer is an entity (ego) who would believe that it could create a better game. Being more precise, the ego still exists, but there is no longer identification with it, and because of that "you" wouldn't become trapped in its delusions. There will be no "I" to play along, there will simply be the seeing of the play. Impersonal awareness/You is watching it all unfold within You. One of the "things" It/You witnesses is an ego entity which would hold a belief that it could change things. But that is seen through as an egoic delusion.

This all becomes more clear as disidentification with ego takes place, and stabilization takes root that "You" are really awareness.

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Postby phil » Sun Nov 27, 2005 2:53 am

kiki wrote:most of those he is talking to are still trapped in dualism.


Yes, to say that most of us are unawakened is an understatement given that it seems 99% of all humans who have ever lived spend 99% of their lives in this state.

If we were biologists, objectively observing some other species, wouldn't we conclude that an unawakened dualistic ego-centric state of illusion is the intended design scheme for this species?

When we look out over the rest of Nature we see a near endless supply of creatures each designed with great precision to fit beautifully within some specific niche. Which creatures were built incorrectly?

Then we regard ourselves and say, "All broken, must be fixed."

Are we the one broken species, or is our immersion in these illusions an intended part of the blueprint?

How might such considerations appear to one no longer identified with ego?
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Postby kiki » Sun Nov 27, 2005 4:20 am

"Are we the one broken species, or is our immersion in these illusions an intended part of the blueprint?"

I would say we are not a "broken species", but rather, a deluded species for the most part. Is that delusion intended? There is an understanding by some, and which I count myself, that says all of this is the entertainment that the one consciousness is playing for its own enjoyment. There is a temporary "forgetting" that all is one in order for consciousness to have something to "do". If the one consciousness didn't put on a convincing show by believing that there IS separation between "me" and "other" then the "entertainment value" wouldn't have much spice to it. What fun would that be if it knew all along that it was only a play?

If there is the belief in the "appearance of many" then all sorts of scenarios can play out including drama, tragedy, suspense, comedy and so forth. But there is also built in to these scenarios "clues" about seeing through it all. In other words, the one consiousness is speaking to itself through apparent others (and nature) to give reminders as to one's true nature. When there is the awakening to what you really are there comes the realization that nothing is wrong or ever could be. I would recommend reading "Enlightenment for Beginners" by Chuck Hillig for an illuminating description of how this works. He writes clearly, simply, and with humor, and he gets to the heart of things in an amazingly direct way. As Chuck would say, "I" am one of the clues You left YourSelf.

"How might such considerations appear to one no longer identified with ego?"

All is seen as it is. There being no personal "I" there can be nothing which would call something better or worse than anything else - those are viewpoints put forth by an imagined entity. When that entity is searched for it cannot be found, so therefore, viewpoints which issue forth from the illusory ego are equally illusory. Then whatever happens there remains a stillness, a silence, a total acceptance of whatever is unfolding - there is a very real peace which is not dependent upon anything else. You ARE the stillness, the silence, the peace, and the spaciousness that it all appears in.

The best way to understand this is to return "home" yourself, then it becomes obvious. But don't stress by searching for "home" because you've never left, there is only the belief that you left. With awakening, that is realized directly and everything is seen as a big play - your/ego's "world" is the joke You/ awareness have been playing on YourSelf.

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Postby phil » Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:09 am

kiki wrote:There is an understanding by some, and which I count myself, that says all of this is the entertainment that the one consciousness is playing for its own enjoyment.


Ah. Yes. We, consciousness, dim the lights, put on costumes, take the stage, and immerse ourselves in the plot of an opera, for entertainment. I can't say as I have a direct experience of this understanding, but I like the theory.

I suppose we might then ask why consciousness requires entertainment which includes so much suffering, however illusory the suffering may be in the larger scheme of things. You and I would not show our kids a movie that scared them literally to death.

That said, there are many appropriate and constructive things that adults do that kids simply aren't equipped to understand.

It's perhaps amusing that consciousness has not only created the soap opera of "my" life so "it" can watch, it has also created television, so "I" can watch imaginary dramas as well.

Consciousness, watching a soap opera of itself watching a soap opera (and sometime the people on the tube are also watching a tube!).

You'd think the Creator of all things would have better things to do! :-)

kiki wrote:There being no personal "I" there can be nothing which would call something better or worse than anything else - those are viewpoints put forth by an imagined entity. When that entity is searched for it cannot be found, so therefore, viewpoints which issue forth from the illusory ego are equally illusory.


It gets tricky here, doesn't it? If I am illusory, and thus my viewpoints are also illusory, on what basis do I pick up a copy of Power Of Now and start reading?

Ah, perhaps here is the reason our Parent takes us to scary operas?

kiki wrote:Then whatever happens there remains a stillness, a silence, a total acceptance of whatever is unfolding - there is a very real peace which is not dependent upon anything else. You ARE the stillness, the silence, the peace, and the spaciousness that it all appears in.


Well said. Personally, I find that being outdoors is an immense aid in approaching this kind of experience.

It's hard to explain, but I'm guessing I don't have to. It's as if man made things have one energy field, and things built by Nature (skipping over the fact that man is nature too) have a different energy field that is infused with stillness.

It's so much easier to pick up the "Stillness Channel" out in the woods.

I wonder if you all would care to share what role nature plays in your awakening.

As a possible thread starter, here is my recent favorite stillness zone, reduced to near worthless abstraction by amazing Internet technology. :-)

http://nature-for-you.com/san-felasco/itchy-bottom.cgi
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Postby summer » Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:24 pm

There are a lot of interesting topics being discussed in this thread.
I just wanted to toss in my 2 cents about suffering.
In the larger picture suffering is our safety catch in the delusion/illusion of egoic misidentity. It is our ticket to freedom, because the minute we identify with the mind self, it kicks in.
When we can see suffering as our ally, it is seen as one more gift from a loving universe.
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Postby phil » Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:02 pm

summer wrote:When we can see suffering as our ally, it is seen as one more gift from a loving universe.


Very well said, and you are completely right, that's the only constructive way to look at it.

Those of us still lost in analysis, and foolish enough to quibble with Nature, might ask why, if Nature wanted us to be awakened it didn't just create us that way in the first place. It's not my fault my brain is designed to ask such foolish questions, I am passing the buck right back to Whoever designed me! :-)

Personally, I really do more and more accept the pain in my own life as a learning curve gift. 50 years of living beats this perspective in to you eventually, whether you want it or not.

But some suffering just seems completely unreasonable, as judged by this one little limited ego.

Millions of people slowing starving to death with AIDS in Africa, etc. I'm not sure how one can be a human manifestation of consciousness without raising a loud complaint to Nature about this seemingly excessive and pointless abuse of power.

I know that I often romantize Nature from the comfort of my suburban lifestyle. I look exclusively for the loving peaceful beauty, because that's what I want to find.

I wonder if we also approach consciousness from this limited perspective sometimes, declining to grasp it's awesome ruthless power.
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Postby be-lank » Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:15 pm

One Consciousness.

"As within so without."

No separation here.

Nature is not separate from who we are.

That which we are is Nature.

The suffering within- manifests.
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Postby spatialbean » Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:06 pm

This thread keeps catching my attention, and it's like there is something in me that wants to be said but I can't really get a grip on it.

Yes, Be-Lank, it is our own suffering we see manifested in "tragedy".

I think it is also a side effect of our rising consciousness that we do see these things now. If all humans had the same awareness of the suffering it would not exist because to the best of our ability we would relieve it. Greed would not prevent medicine from reaching Africa and food from reaching the people who are hungry.

On my way to my nephew's for Thanksgiving I saw five dead deer on the road on a 30 minute drive. By the time I reached the fifth one I couldn't hold my tears in any longer. I was thinking "oh how horrible, humans are horrible with their cars killing these amazing beautiful creatures we have to speed through their home blah blah blah" and another voice came in and said "hold on a minute...yes the creature is beautiful...but where has it gone? has it gone anywhere? it's gone back into you, Claudia, if it's gone anywhere at all...nothing ever dies...it just changes...it's not gone..."

There is a part of me that does not want to be dispassionate about death and suffering but that is our whole goal here, acceptance of what is, and these things exist. Like Tolle says, if we are moved to do something we might feed a starving child or write a spiritual book. Take action when it is called for and when you can, but to not add to the suffering by crying against what is. Tolle also reminds us that Jesus said on the cross "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do", meaning, if they were awake this would not be happening, but they aren't so we can only accept.

There is still something nagging me inside. I guess I will be quiet and maybe it will surface.

Love,
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Postby phil » Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:33 am

Claudia, that was a beautiful post. Truly it was.

Deer are wondeful gurus. Often on my walks I'll come upon a deer and we will regard each other carefully in quiet stillness for 15 minutes before each going our own way. Perhaps I don't attend the right seminars, but I rarely get such a strong sense of precence from a human being.

In celebration of teachers who have come, and gone:
http://nature-for-you.com/deer/pics/large/p1090242.jpg

spatialbean wrote:There is a part of me that does not want to be dispassionate about death and suffering but that is our whole goal here, acceptance of what is, and these things exist.


Yes, they do. And our passion exists as well. We are human, born in to illusion and attachment. My purpose in this thread is to try to learn how to embrace and accept both the passion and the dispassion, the illusion and whatever clarity I can find. All of it, at the same time.

Maybe it's not either/or. Maybe we can allow ourselves to pull over to the side of the road and break down in tears at the loss of our friends, while still realizing they are not really lost. Maybe we can embrace and accept it all.

spatialbean wrote:There is still something nagging me inside. I guess I will be quiet and maybe it will surface.


If it does, I hope you'll share it here. I'd like to read another of your posts.

For better or the worse, I appear to be embracing and accepting noisiness this week, and I hope someone might alert me if the racket becomes too intrusive.
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Postby summer » Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:02 am

Maybe it's not either/or. Maybe we can allow ourselves to pull over to the side of the road and break down in tears at the loss of our friends, while still realizing they are not really lost. Maybe we can embrace and accept it all.


As we become more conscious, we become much more loving. At first it seems like we are letting go of our loved ones. Our children, our friends, our families. And that is very scary.

Most of us who say that we are on the spiritual path are fine as long as we think that we are losing our negative qualities. Our anger, our shadow, the suffering, the pain body, etc. etc. etc.

But the real test comes when we realise that we have to let go of our loved ones, and all of the "good" qualities that we enjoy in ourselves. And still our inner voice keeps on nudging us towards a truer love that embraces all of life, and is not limited to our personal families and our story.

I keep on reminding myself that I have to trust in a Love that is much greater even than the one that I cherish the most right now.
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