why presence takes time

This is the place to post whatever questions you have related to the teachings of Eckhart Tolle. The rest of us will do whatever we can to help you achieve a better understanding :)
Ives
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Post by Ives » Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:08 pm

Okay, so if negative karma is pain, what is positive karma?
What are the “rewards for being good”?
Webwanderer wrote: It is the ripples on the pond, reflecting off the shores to return to their origin.
Very nice image.

Could it be therefore that the reward is greater awareness.

So that in terms of spiritual evolution over the course of lifetimes, there is the possibility of an accumulation of Presence. The (effortless) efforts made to be in the now are not lost at death.
That would explain why some people take to these ideas immediately, why some never get it, and why some shift into an awakened state for no apparent reason. The ‘work’ has been done in previous incarnations.

This would apply equally to this lifetime, in terms of the efforts made up to this point.

I’d be curious to know what you think, Web.

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Post by Webwanderer » Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:14 am

Ives wrote:I’d be curious to know what you think, Web.
Well let's take it as a given that whatever I think is going to be less than what is. But that never stopped me before, so why start now? :lol:
Okay, so if negative karma is pain, what is positive karma?
What are the “rewards for being good”?
There are no rewards, or for that matter punishments. There is only cause and effect. The concept of good karma and bad karma are the judgments of an ego based perspective. Generally those that accept the concept of karma, label emotionally painful experiences as bad karma, and pleasant experiences (if given karmic credit at all) as good karma. But like most Truths in life, karma is simpler than the mind can accept, so it divides it into an acceptable complexity. And as the mind likewise loves both being a victim and having enemies to condemn, seeing karma as predominately "bad" makes for a useful tool to maintain separation.

Karma, like any aspect of life, just is. Whatever is done through the guise of ego or mind expresses energy. This energy has certain qualities that creates an atmosphere surrounding the ego that expressed it. The more a certain energy is expressed the stronger the atmosphere becomes. In the case of the coarser energies (anger, depression, deceit, etc), the ego being the great denier, disowns the origins of these energies and pushes them out of direct awareness, thus creating the painbody.

"Good" karma works in the same way. Certain benevolent actions create its own unique atmosphere, drawing to itself harmonious energies.

Knowing this allows one to manage ones life by preferable mental focus and creating the atmosphere of choice. This is the "secret" of so many self-help and new age technologies of making ones self a better, more pleasant life.

But it is all still ego/mind stuff and is not the "point" of the Tolle teachings. Clear presence-awareness does not make judgments on good or bad karma. It accepts what is, while remaining clear that all content of the moment is legitament, in that it is the unfolding of the diversity of life.
Could it be therefore that the reward is greater awareness.
You could look at it as a reward, but I think that would be relative to an ego perspective of reward and punishment. Awareness is our Essential Identity. We need but recognize those concepts that distort our clarity to reclaim our inherent vision.
So that in terms of spiritual evolution over the course of lifetimes, there is the possibility of an accumulation of Presence. The (effortless) efforts made to be in the now are not lost at death.
That would explain why some people take to these ideas immediately, why some never get it, and why some shift into an awakened state for no apparent reason. The ‘work’ has been done in previous incarnations.
I think this perspective has merrit, but again from an ego/mind point of view. Multiple lifetimes may well exist and function as you say. There may be heavens and levels of heavens, but even this would be content within the Infinity of Being. It's all speculation of coarse, the meanderings of the mind contemplating its own existance. Pure Awareness has no such illusions. It just observes in wonderment the Kingdom at hand.

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Post by Ives » Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:55 am

Dear Web,

I have been reflecting on your answer above over the past couple of days. I have printed it out and taped it to the inside of my head.

It’s refreshing and clear. Thanks.

Ives


Webwanderer wrote: It's all speculation of course, the meanderings of the mind contemplating its own existance. Pure Awareness has no such illusions. It just observes in wonderment the Kingdom at hand.
Well said.

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Post by OnlyNow » Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:51 pm

dancer wrote:
why presence takes time
Perhaps we should take a second look at the title of this thread.

Perhaps the assumption in it isn't quite right.


...............................................
Hi

I didn't make any assumptions in my title, it was rather a statement ( right or wrong, who cares?) qualified immediately by the 'maybe', the first word in the post.

The truth is that for nearly all of us the coming into contact with ET and the concept of 'presence' is that its 'realization' does takes time.

There may have been an instant affinity with ET's description of presence and time is not a requirement as ET explains, but for most of us, although the pointers make sense the actuality of presence realization lags a little or if we choose a lot behind

...as said,

...."as long as one needs."

My introduction of 'karma' into the arena explains 'as long as one needs' or perhaps 'as long as one wants' and is why for many of us the complete realization of presence doesn't happen immediately.

For most the unruly mind (ego) is not dissolved instantly, however its never ever gonna be quite as strong as it was before.

I have confidence that to have contacted ET and his works and to have understood the pointers takes us all to a different level, through a doorway if you like and we cannot lose this advance.

Post ET there's no turning back, cos theres nothing there.

Truthfully there is no forward search either.

You have either suffered enough and you walk through the portal or you haven't suffered enough and you don't.

you see suffering is ........time
When the Pupil is ready the Master appears

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Post by BrahmanEternal » Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:43 pm

Webwanderer wrote: There are no rewards, or for that matter punishments. There is only cause and effect. The concept of good karma and bad karma are the judgments of an ego based perspective.
This post is worth pure gold, its as if you channeled Buddha really really great, meat of the whole teaching in the most concise and powerful way ive read so far.

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Post by JD » Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:40 pm

OnlyNow wrote: The truth is that for nearly all of us the coming into contact with ET and the concept of 'presence' is that its 'realization' does takes time.
Even ET contradicts himself and admits as much in an unguarded moment on one of his audiobooks: "It took me about ten years to fully integrate presence into my everyday life". :D

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Post by BrahmanEternal » Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:10 pm

Can you guys reach presence at will or does it happen more often by chance.

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Post by Webwanderer » Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:55 pm

Can you guys reach presence at will or does it happen more often by chance.
It's a simple recognition of being vs. living attached to some random story of mind.

Learn to recognize stories, and how emotions create attachments to them. Recognize also pure awareness free of thought and assumptions. One is content, the other is Essence.

If you have to figure this out you're missing the "point". The Natural State is to be free of the figuring.

Familiarity offers ease of movement.

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Post by weichen » Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:11 pm

Can you guys reach presence at will or does it happen more often by chance.
Sometimes it maybe through will (take an action such as inhabiting the inner body, watching, be alert etc), sometime may happen by chance (the person happen to stand next to a big tree covered with heavy snow, the presence of the tree triggers the presence inside the person).

But often, it is neither through will nor by chance, it is through memory. When a person has experienced several very tough life challenges and the memory of "presence" in these challenges maybe very very strong. So any new life challenges will likely trigger presence.

Presence takes time, yes, because this kind of presence memory is like remembering several new words, you need to learn it once (or a few times to deepen the understanding), and review it, teach it, and apply it as often as you can. When tough challenges come, make sure you seize the opportunity to apply it.

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Post by kiki » Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:06 pm

I wouldn't say it is so much "willed" but recognized to be present no matter what the circumstance. And from the recognition of its availability there is an ease of dropping back into it with greater spontaneity. As webwanderer put it: "Familiarity offers ease of movement."

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Post by BrahmanEternal » Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:53 pm

Oh yes , its so easy to fall into trap of duallity, this little-me just loves to judge. :)
I have to shake myself. :)
But seriously now, i m very aware of my thoughts and i can see this practice hinders the mind in spinning of the story and creating new stories.

Its apparent that in the words of web, kiki and weichen and many others on the forum there is some sort of energy that is non-dual, it takes great courage to make this decision and i congratulate you guys on it.

And also in posts of some of the unconcious posters you can sense the garbage, negative energy in their posts, and so is in life i guess, you either pollute or create.

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