It's pioneer stuff !

This is the place to post whatever questions you have related to the teachings of Eckhart Tolle. The rest of us will do whatever we can to help you achieve a better understanding :)
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Shion
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Post by Shion » Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:36 pm

Thank you guys for your comments !

Web, I'm not "skeptic" and I presented a practical-oriented point of view that I know is common enough.
I'd like to ask you to comment on that, rather than on my personal belief which really doesn't matter.

Seancho, yeah, fear. Good point and it naturally brings me to see from where comes (my) fear.
Physical pain ! If it weren't for this !
It seems that Jesus was so realised that he was able to transcend physical pain.
How it that ? Possibly psychic qualities. Or he just felt the pain.
I'm not skeptic at all about the potential of what realisation itself can bring, but I quite believe that realisation doesn't lead directly to superhuman powers or all-seeing eyes and also not to immunity from physical pain.

Of course fear will be sensed as just nothing but an illusion, we know it when we get a glimpse, a "sense" of our true self-less. But, in living awakened, I think there still will be physical pain.
That pain that EVERY MOMENT, past and present, milions of people are tasting on a vast number of flavours, without an easy solution to overcome it.

In addition, what causes my resentment for the planet condition, it's a matter of sense that is, this planet doesn't make sense anymore in the harmony. Other than for the original purpose : Enjoyment based on connectedness among everything. And then developement of various abilities especially psychic. There is no such a purpose of "awakening", that's elementary, the basic, the obvious.
We don't need realisation to remember this simple way of life do we ?
Every one is born realised, we just need to make it notice it from parents to children !

Am I realised already to see it this way ?
Or, humans are so blinded that I don't get the reasons of their behaviours.... at all ?
I think next time, (after a hyphotetical big destruction) we should simply notice of whoever make children irresponsibly, that's it !

Sorry, I started to divert, so let's get back to the point that we need practical solutions today, projects, movements, skillful leading persons, with clear mind and heart, not necessarily realised, because we are actors in this maya, therefore needed to act.
I'd love to hear your comments !

Love
Shion

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Post by Webwanderer » Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:36 pm

The purpose of this forum is not so much about changing the world. There are plenty of places to go to try and fix things.

Here we focus more on how we see the world. If we do not see the world clearly, who knows what misguided trouble we may get into? History is filled with do-good mistakes.

Tolle is the primary guide here for gaining clarity and recognition of our essential nature, but there are other sources that help as well.

It is enough for one website to do, and I can think of nothing more important.

Of course anyone is welcome to go out and interact with the world. We do not recommend doing nothing, we just remind those who frequent here that there is no separate doer.

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Post by eseward » Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:30 pm

Hi Shion. Just some small comments here...
Shion wrote:I'm not skeptic at all about the potential of what realisation itself can bring, but I quite believe that realisation doesn't lead directly to superhuman powers or all-seeing eyes and also not to immunity from physical pain.
This reminds me that Jesus is quoted as having said...
I of myself can do nothing; the Father does the works.
It is one thing to pursue powers (not recommended IMO), and quite another to watch as something beyond our everyday sense of self seems to enter in and "make the crooked places straight", seems to solve problems for us as things unfold.
Lao Tse wrote:The universe is like a bellows, empty yet quite full; as it proceeds it produces.
Shion wrote:Of course fear will be sensed as just nothing but an illusion...

Enjoyment based on connectedness among everything.
Yes. Very beautifully said IMO. :)

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Post by seeker » Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:06 pm

Okay, I may as well wade in on this one too because I don't know when I'll have a chance to participate again.

Yes, we should be working on solar power, but as far as I know, Tolle does not disagree. He speaks of pursuing goals within the world of form. Solar power, feeding the hungry etc are part of that.

What seems to be the point is that we should do these things in the Now, that is accepting the world and our life situation as it is at this moment. This allows the doer, at least in theory, to access a far greater power than he/she can as an individual. The mind is clearer, the creativity is working at a higher level etc. The paraphrase of Jesus above is instructive on this point.

I don't understand this stuff very well and I certainly struggle to live it, but I am sure there is no disconnect between being here in the Now and doing things to make the world a better place. What we seem to miss is that being here is practical. To be practical in the popular sense is to set a goal for the future. Nothing wrong with that if we proceed in the Now. I think it's the spirit of the actions that are in question.

I think,also, that if more people were in the Now the world would be a better place. There would be less grasping for position and a lot more giving. it would not be perfect, but no one says that it ever could be.

I might also say that I too have noticed some of the responses to people's comments reflect a decided point of view and sometimes defensiveness.

Just an observation.

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Post by eseward » Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:58 pm

seeker wrote:What seems to be the point is that we should do these things in the Now, that is accepting the world and our life situation as it is at this moment. This allows the doer, at least in theory, to access a far greater power than he/she can as an individual. The mind is clearer, the creativity is working at a higher level etc...

I am sure there is no disconnect between being here in the Now and doing things to make the world a better place. What we seem to miss is that being here is practical...

I think,also, that if more people were in the Now the world would be a better place. There would be less grasping for position and a lot more giving.
Great stuff IMO; I agree totally.

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Post by Foxtrot » Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:17 pm

ninjin wrote: Self help industry is one huge market. Those who buy TPON has bought other books and will continure to buy other books because TPON do not help anything. There are no instructions in the book.
Just reading about the painbody of which no one really has any idea what it is do not help you. If you want instructions and stuff you have to go to other and better sources than ET.
Ninjin, the other day you posted a comment that I called," absurd and at the same time amusing ". The feelings and thoughts that flooded your physical body and mind when you read that statement, and caused you to react by immediately defending yourself in the form of a retort of my comments, that which drove you to answer me, is what Eckhart is referring to by the term pain body. Now you know.
The moment you read those words you were compelled to respond. You could not have just chuckled, and gone on with your day. You or anyone else on the planet, do not have to be controlled by this unconcious behavior. It was not you that had to defend yourself against a perceived attack, it was your pain body, and you can change this automatic type of negative reaction whitin you if you choose, or you can keep it. The choice is yours, as it is with everyone. People can have hundreds, maybe thousands of these little triggers, that cause them suffering, in different degrees, daily threw out their lives. Keeping these triggers or adding to them as you get older, will create the way you experience your life. The same or more frustration, anger, depression, fear, regret, etc etc. Lessening them will create a different life experience. Less of these negative feelings, and more joy, creativity, friends, clear thinking, etc. etc. in your life.

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Post by eseward » Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:16 pm

Great stuff, Foxtrot.

ninjin

Post by ninjin » Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:27 am

Okilydokily. I chuckled and responded. So if I made a consciouss descision to respond then it wasn't the pain body that was behind it. Or is whenever you respond to remarks it is the pain body that is behind it?
From what I understand it is what lies behind the response that decides if it was the painbody or not. The intent so to speak. The "Why?"

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Post by eseward » Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:22 pm

ninjin wrote:So if I made a consciouss descision to respond then it wasn't the pain body that was behind it. Or is whenever you respond to remarks it is the pain body that is behind it?
One way of looking at it is to observe whether you feel any pressure to respond. This internal pressure, this feeling of lack of choice, of "have to", is an automated reaction, and is therefore from the conditioned sense of self (egoic mind). This would be painbody activity. In this state you are actually a machine, not a free person.

When you can either respond or not, and either choice is ok with you, then there actually is choice; you are free in the situation.

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Post by Webwanderer » Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:33 pm

Excellent eseward. Very insightful.

ninjin

Post by ninjin » Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:16 pm

eseward wrote: One way of looking at it is to observe whether you feel any pressure to respond. This internal pressure, this feeling of lack of choice, of "have to", is an automated reaction, and is therefore from the conditioned sense of self (egoic mind). This would be painbody activity. In this state you are actually a machine, not a free person.

When you can either respond or not, and either choice is ok with you, then there actually is choice; you are free in the situation.
Then the claim that it was my painbody that forced me to respond is pure speculation and should not be said in such a affirmative way.
Because it is only me that knows wether what I write comes from a compulsive need or not. So the response should be in a question format.
Basically question my thoughts.

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Post by eseward » Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:23 pm

ninjin wrote:Then the claim that it was my painbody that forced me to respond is pure speculation and should not be said in such a affirmative way.
Because it is only me that knows wether what I write comes from a compulsive need or not. So the response should be in a question format.
Sounds correct to me. Not entirely sure which response you're referring to.

ninjin

Post by ninjin » Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:27 pm

FoxTrots response in this thread where he claims that my response in the What about men? thread came from the painbody.

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Post by Seancho » Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:53 am

ninjin wrote: Because it is only me that knows wether what I write comes from a compulsive need or not. So the response should be in a question format.
Basically question my thoughts.
If it comes from a compulsive need, would you know?

Its only now that I am seeing that my entire life has been scripted out by one compulsive need or another. Totally asleep. Robotic. And its still not over.

Compulsive means you have no choice. The compulsion is thinking, deciding, acting, not you. You are asleep.

It seems to me that the one thing that is keeping everybody miserable is the idea that we are actually deciding what we do. Not so, it appears.

You cant wake up until you recognize that you are asleep.
If you stop believing in fear, is it still scary?

ninjin

Post by ninjin » Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:37 am

Well then you never know if anything is compulsive or not. Even if you are realised. Because who is realised?
Are the realised aware that they aren't doing anything and yet they function?
Don't you go mad sitting in a movietheatre all your life never moving?

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