fear and awareness - can both be there at the same time?

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astaroth
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fear and awareness - can both be there at the same time?

Post by astaroth » Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:02 pm

hi community! 8)
at first: excuse my bad english. i'm german.

i have serveral questions... THANX a lot if you read them and try to answer them.

something to my person: fear and doubts have alwys been playing a very important role in my behaving and thinking. maybe this was what forced me to look for "something else" - you know what i mean :wink:
i was very often thinking too much about things - instead of simply doing it.

today i can observe these thoughts filled with fear and i know it's my problems-creatings mind, not me. i don't suffer any more about them. but! they are still there and they don't seem to go away.

when i do something, when i play my role as a part of the material universe my behaviour can only come out of my thoughts because from what else can it? even when i'm completely in the now, feeling peace about it, i sometimes have to do something. and for this is need thinking. this thinking is still full of fear.

i feel, like kiki said very well, like an (sometimes more, sometimes less) scared actor in a movie but don't get lost in it. but most times i remember only when everything's over... when the mistakes have happened... read on...
there is still this fear as a part of my "me" what i know not to be really me - you understand?

am i somehow still identified with my material things - may be what other people could think about me, how i could get physically hurt or whatever...? i know fear is always the fear of losing something what my "me" believes to have earned for itself. if i really knew that all these material things are all maya, all illusions, how could i still be scared of losing it?

i see this best when i talk to people. i've always been pretty shy. "me" has always been pretty shy.
i can be completely satisfied in the now - as soon as somebody talks to me i have to think to be able to interact with him/her. i'm not aware of my thoughts when talking because i have to think very fast and have no time to watch the thoughts. if i were in the now i would probably say nothing at all. saying nothing is also saying something. you understand?
...
and after some time i feel this fear - this what tries to force me to walk away, to end the talking.
when there are more people, it's easy to keep my ego quiet. i listen to the other people and feel quite happy about it. but when i talk 1on1 to somebody this isn't possible.

these are my questions:

-is it possible to talk to people and be aware at the same time?
not to get lost in talking?
-is it possible to do something in the material world what doesn't come out of my thoughts? i know i can obsvere these fear-filled thoughts as not me. but wthout any thought there's no material action. when i want to do something i need these thoughts - and with them the nerver-ending fear. wrong?
---> am i somehow still identified with material things?



best wishes everyone and thanks for reading this all. it's become a lot of text.

astaroth


:wink:
...you might remember me from such educational films as "Zen for couch-potatoes - The wisdom of never doing anything" or "Buddha from da hood - Was he a brother?"

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Post by kiki » Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:15 am

First of all, welcome to the board, astaroth.
if i really knew that all these material things are all maya, all illusions, how could i still be scared of losing it
I will start with this quote of yours; the illusion is that it is happening to someone in particular, someone who thinks they are separate from everyone and everything else. The fact that there is still fear of "losing it" then there is still identification with the illusory "me" going on. It is not enough to just understand there is no "me", you have to realize it as fact as a living reality (that's why it's called realization).
these are my questions:

-is it possible to talk to people and be aware at the same time?
not to get lost in talking?
Well, there is always awareness/consciousness present because that's what you are. So permit me to rephrase the question: Is it possible to talk to people and remain aware of one's essential nature (awareness)? Yes.
-is it possible to do something in the material world what doesn't come out of my thoughts?
Of course. Being awake doesn't negate action; action flows spontaneously, but with no one identifying with it. Thoughts may come that relate to the action but when they are done mind dissolves again. There is no one identifying with the thoughts.
i know i can obsvere these fear-filled thoughts as not me. but wthout any thought there's no material action.


Is this your experience or is this a conclusion you've reached how you think it is?
when i want to do something i need these thoughts - and with them the nerver-ending fear. wrong?
There is nothing inherently "wrong" with wanting to do something. The problem comes when there are expectations associated with that want. If there exists a belief that not getting that want fulfilled diminishes you or achieving that want increases your "worth" then you are setting yourself up for suffering.

When you are "awake" no wants come. However, if there is a desire for something it doesn't matter one way or another if that desire is fulfilled.
---> am i somehow still identified with material things?
What you are still identified with is your idea of who you are.
Last edited by kiki on Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by weichen » Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:17 am

hi astaroth,
You may want to write down a few of the thoughts that make you fear. If you don't know exactly what your thoughts are, then make your best guess.

Most likely these thoughts are:
1. (At root level) my life will not be complete if I can not make half a million dollar and have a nice relationship (add your definition of nice relationship here...) before I am 30.
2. (At practical level) in order to make it financially, I must
a. get into university that rank at top 10
b. get into high money earning career such as....
c. ....
3. (also at practical level) in order to make it in relationship, I must
meet the following criteria.....


Once you write them down, you can see that these thoughts may help you to have focus and take action and you probably indeed accomplish all your goals, and then feel empty later.

Most likely reality can not accomodate these thoughts, and then you experience fear. i.e. your mind is working very hard trying to find a way within this extremely narrow view of life.


Once you accumulated experience of writing down the thoughts that give you fear and seeing its damage to you, you come to the sudden realization that all thoughts are false. At that point, you can live in the world and be aware at the same time.

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Post by Webwanderer » Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:38 am

Hello astaroth, welome to our forum.

First a little moderator-duty house keeping. Please read the forum rules, especially as it pertains to proper capitalization. We strive to communicate as clearly as possible for our world wide membership. Appologies for the public notice, but I've been lagging behind in my duties as of late and decided to take this opportunity to make a wider plea to all of our members for easier reading. Thanks. :wink:



Now to your primary inquirey. Mind and thought can never be aware; both are content within awareness. One can be aware through thought, but not as thought. (Mind is a bundle of thoughts/memories/beliefs/etc., one of which is the primary assumption of itself as a separate identity, and is supported by the rest as it's proof)

In the dawning of presence-awareness, there is a fluctuation between the hypnotic attraction of mind identity and the clarity of awakening presence. As the tipping point is reached in favor of awakening, remaining aware while thinking becomes more prevalent. Getting lost in thought becomes more linked to the emotional content that accompanies thought than lighter thoughts of little consequence. This shift in clarity rarely takes place over night, but commonly lasts for years with peaks and valleys along the way.

Patience and perseverance in regular returns to silent awareness pace the shift to clarity. Be gentle in your recognition of mental attachments. Just let them go without fanfare and return to watchful awareness. All concepts, whether of self or mental world views, are content within awareness and capable of being clearly observed.

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Post by Seancho » Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:24 am

People make you afraid because you want something from them. You want their approval. You believe you must have it. Otherwise, why be afraid?

The Buddha called it attachment. Anthony de Mello said we are all addicts. Junkies going through life in fear, desperately, mindlessly seeking our drug.

The risk you take when you talk to a person is that they will disapprove of you. You lose your drug. Thats the insanity of living in the mind. You think that a thought can hurt you. Isnt that crazy?

The fear is of nothing. Feels real, but it is not.

Dont be afraid of your fear. If you relax and approach the fear instead of avoiding it, you will see that nothing is there. Just look at it, let it happen, and notice that it means nothing. Practice this and you may even find yourself eager to feel afraid!

See the crazy way you seek approval to try and build up your self image. That is the source of all the fear. Because if you believe the positive self-images, you have to fear the negative ones.

Why not kick the habit and drop self-images altogether?
If you stop believing in fear, is it still scary?

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Post by enlighten » Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:55 pm

spot on seancho :)

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Post by weichen » Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:02 pm

Seancho wrote:People make you afraid because you want something from them. You want their approval. You believe you must have it
Thank you, Seancho!

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Post by astaroth » Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:05 pm

Hi all!

This is not really a question, nor an answer to my own question :wink:

I just wanted to say that by reading the things you posted in this forum, i understood much better what i really are and wandted to share this to others who will maybe read this

To me all the stuff sounded quite confusing. I couldn't understand and I know that probably this is what a lot of others experience here, looking for answers...

All answers can be reduced to one:

Realize that you are not what happens inside you. You are the screen on what all this happens. You are the source of it not the content of the screen.
So don't care what this may be. Don't make a problem of it whatever it is. Because anything happening there is just like a movie you see. It's not you. Resisting, the will to fight and change it, creates pain about what is or fear of losing it.

If you look for the answers on your seeking inside this content of mind, you won't find them because you are still on the level of what the questions create.

Thanx a lot to you all!

Namaste

astaroth
...you might remember me from such educational films as "Zen for couch-potatoes - The wisdom of never doing anything" or "Buddha from da hood - Was he a brother?"

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Post by kiki » Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:42 pm

astaroth wrote:All answers can be reduced to one:

Realize that you are not what happens inside you. You are the screen on what all this happens. You are the source of it not the content of the screen.
So don't care what this may be. Don't make a problem of it whatever it is. Because anything happening there is just like a movie you see. It's not you. Resisting, the will to fight and change it, creates pain about what is or fear of losing it.

If you look for the answers on your seeking inside this content of mind, you won't find them because you are still on the level of what the questions create.
Yup, that's it.

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Post by BrahmanEternal » Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:18 pm

Its like a lucid dream when you realize its just a dream you dont take all the monsters, villans and problems so seriously if at all :D , just summon something beautiful and enjoy life truly, and i mean truly to its fullest. :)

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