I don't understand you guys

This is the place to post whatever questions you have related to the teachings of Eckhart Tolle. The rest of us will do whatever we can to help you achieve a better understanding :)
(???)
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I don't understand you guys

Post by (???) » Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:28 pm

Hi,

:roll:

Look, please read my post and see if you guys can help me. I really can't understand all those meaningless :?: :evil: :?: words many of you guys are using.

If you explain in simple plain, non-Echkart language I can understand. Don't ask me to run a marathon when I am still limping, okay?

I am new to this place, new to Eckhart, but just scanned through some posts but some replies looking more complicated than Eckhart's preaching itself.

Now coming to myself ( or my problem)

I have been having lotsa stress in my work place for the past several years, bad treatment from bosses, bad working hours, bad pay etc ( now please, please don't come with with all those mind boggling words like ego, *$%#, *($#@@ etc.

Over the period of time, I have started becoming more emotional, irritable ( hey, you guessed it right! :) and off late my ability to focus fumbles. I forget things easily. I have started getting hypertension, diabetes etc.

Though many of my grouses are valid/reasonable nowadays I am catching myself on reacting to situations more than necessary, having imaginary arguments etc. ( No I have not gone bonkers yet)

SLOWLY I HAVE REALIZED THAT MANY OF MY PROBLEMS ARE CREATIONS OF MY MIND. Hee hee hee...

Now comes the problem. I caught hold of the Power of Now. Hey was it not written for me?

The thing is, I have been trying to be aware and be present, watching the thinker etc., and for a few seconds, the racing thoughts stop, but again the mind picks up at full speed with all its internal dialogues etc. I am trying hard, but the thoughts are coming again, and again continuously. They are not thoughts, but many in the forms of imagined dialogues etc.

I have been sitting with Eckhart for two months now, but feeling really discouraged. :(

Whatto do? Should I visit my shrink? ( Hope you don't send me to the shrink with all those "abstract art" looking answers. You know, I don't understand abstract art, ie.

I want your help in ways to help me quieten my mind intially. I am full of mind now, and I am NOT ready for the mindless :)) answers that I see here.

And hey, DON'T EVER judge ME!!!!!!


:) :) :)

Thanks! Can you please help me?

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Post by suraj » Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:38 pm

Hey was it not written for me?
How dare you say that ? It was written for me :)
I AM

(???)
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Post by (???) » Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:39 pm

That was a real friendly quip. I liked that!!! :)

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Post by weichen » Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:47 pm

Hey, (???), welcome to the forum.

I want to reassure you that you have come to the right place, relax, you are at home here.

I recommend that you start by writing down a tiny example of the thought dialogue in your head, the one dialogue that immediately come back after stoping for a few seconds (when you observe it).

Don't underestimate a tiny segment of your life, because that segment is called NOW, that is all you will ever have. Also they are very similar, the learning curve is not that steep.

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Post by Seancho » Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:28 pm

I agree, cut through all the spiritual jargon. Weichen's said it, just relax.

Relax the body, relax the mind, relax the emotions. Thats all that enlightenment is. Let yourself relax.
If you stop believing in fear, is it still scary?

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Post by seeker » Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:59 pm

Greetings ???:

I hesitate to say anything because I have had similar problems and I know that for each person it's different; however I can tell you some of the things I did.

I get the feeling from your post that things are very emotionally charged. Get to know your emotions. There are a number of ways to do this, but I used a journal because I like to write. I spent a certain time each day writing about feelings and trying to get to know them. I began to break the big ball of emotion up and I came to recognize anger, depression, sadness, frustration, irritation etc. as distinct, and I understood how they were related (anger and depression, for example are closely related).

By writing I put the feelings "out there" and I could recognize them for what they were. Now, when I feel those things I can respond by accepting it. "There is anger", I can say. This lets me step back from the emotion. To say "There is anger" is not to say I am angry.

Also, you may learn to recognize the feelings you have when the thoughts stop. "This is joy" or "This is "peace". For me, learning to see these things helped me see that my life situation was getting better.

This helped me. I believe it may be useful for you.

Keep practicing

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Post by boogeyman » Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:00 am

Hey ???,

I have the same problems too and just recently I've started to learn how to deal with it. When your at work you usually have to use your mind. how much thinking is needed depends on your job.
At work most of my attention was only on my mind, on thoughts. Constantly blaming, complaining, having these imaginary arguments. I became a walking brain you could say. But the solution is really simple, and you probably read it from ET's book.

Always try to keep some attention on your body. Just feel it. no more is needed. When you take a break at your work place, use the time to feel the body. Infact take small brakes when ever you can to feel the body. When strong negative emotion arise theres usually some physical side to that feeling. When I get angry or upset I notice theres always a contraction in my gut. This gut feeling is actually really usefull in reminding to bring attention back to the body. The key word is "FEEL" and not get the mind too involved in the feeling, because then its not feeling anymore, it's thinking. In all its simplicity just feel the body and nothing else.

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Post by astaroth » Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:19 am

Hi (???)!

You have a problem. Did I say "problem"? That's what you're making out of it. You've maybe heared this severel times.
Who said there's anything wrong with being angry, depressed or whatever else "bad" feeling you are experiencing?

I noticed that it's not the feeling itself what makes us suffer, no matter how "horrible" it is. It's your inner judgment about it. That makes them to a personal problem for you. After some time you will be able to just see this feelings appear, without making a problem for yourself out of it. But now you try to avoid these feelings because you don't like them. You see, that's completely normal. Who would like to have a strong negative feeling inside?

But this inner fight against the emotion is what gives them more power. It's like an addict. It really IS an addict. Or can you stop them?
But this doesn't mean that you have to overcome this addict. This wish IS the addict, in a way.

What makes them comparable to an addict is that you want to stop them - you probably don't like this aspect of "yourself". So you're fighting it. You like the good feelings like peace, satisfaction and whatever. But you can never choose what thoughts or feelings will appear. Can you? No. So don't resist to whatever it may be. It's only the judgment what makes the content of your mind a problem.

This makes you suffer. Not the feeling itself. The feeling is like it is. Just look at it, deep inside - and let it do whatever it wants inside you. Just observe. There will probably the inner voice that is resisting to the feeling, that doesn't want to let the control go. This inner voice what always wants to control everything inside is what makes you suffer.
As soon as you have understood this, you will maybe be able not to spend attention to it. Don't fight this inner voice, as well, or it would have come back in again though the backdoor. This goes deeper and deeper inside...

But as long as you resist to these feelings, the best what can happen is that you push them back. You need lots of energy for this and the feeling will return - because you are afraid of the feeling. You resist it. The power you need for this resistance saps you from inside.

When you have understood that it's just all about letting the inner things pass without resisting to them - whatever it may be - then you will see for yourself that these "bad" feelings aren't really bad as long as you don't make them so. These feelings dissolve and just go away in peace as soon as you allow them to be - just be.

Because you aren't the feelings. When you have some time for yourself, see and feel as deep inside as you can, not with your mind, and try to find out what you really are. You will see the explanations of your mind "I'm a stressed worker in a bad job, my name is xy and my wife's called yz". But is that really you? Go deeper.

What is it what recognises this thoughts - and what also recognises this feelings you are suffering about? Is that a thought? Can a thought or a feeling be you?
Or are you just "the seeing", that, what can notice everything happening outside and inside and what has always done this - all your life? What else could be you? All your ideas about yourself - after all, just ideas. But ideas that are very vulnerable. You experience this every day when facing these "bad feelings"

Don't say "Oh, just some more spiritual crap I don't understand." Because if you don't understand this, you can never be free of your mind and it's negative aspects. But don't be afraid. It's really so simple...


You will maybe find out: You are the frame on which all these things happen. You are not what is inside this frame. If there's a feeling of anger or frustration appearing - then, that's just what's happening. Because you aren't the content of what you are seeing. So why make a problem of it?

Just let it go. Know yourself as what is just seeing and allowing the inner things. This makes peace out of a negative feeling.


Hope u'll be alright
astaroth[/i]
...you might remember me from such educational films as "Zen for couch-potatoes - The wisdom of never doing anything" or "Buddha from da hood - Was he a brother?"

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Post by (???) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:27 pm

Hi,

I thank all you guys for being patient with me, and understanding me and I definitely understand you.

Actually I gave quirky twist to my first mail just so that I get replies which I can understand in simple words. I have never felt that anyone of you is talking crap, it is just so that some level of talk here in this forum, at this juncture, I am not able to relate to, that is all.

In fact, many of what you guys have said, I actually have understood long back, but what is happening to me is that because of the 'FORCE OF HABIT' this internal ranting is continuing. And you all know that habits die hard.

What I would like to know is that though I understand principles/concepts, will I be able to slowly come out of this internal ranting? And how I can go about it practicing? I have noted some guys here giving tips as to how they have gone about it in their lives. Thanks!

In fact I repeat, many of the things behind my problem I already know...the reason that I told you that I felt as if ET was written for me is because of various gems of phrases in his book like "mind cannot solve its own problems" etc.

I also fully UNDERSTAND that I am this awareness where all these thoughts, feelings etc take place, but somehow the REALIZATION does not come and I am still so much full of mind ( again, not because I don't understand the principles/concept) but because out of force of habit. An analogy could be an alcoholic who knows all the bad things alcohol is doing for him, but still not able to come out of it.

Thanks!

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Post by Webwanderer » Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:46 pm

??? wrote:What I would like to know is that though I understand principles/concepts, will I be able to slowly come out of this internal ranting?
You will come out of the ranting to the degree you recognize the perceptual difference between living as the rantor and living as one who observes the ranting dispassionately. The ranting is (in part) born of the passion, and identification as the rantor. Allow the feeling underlying the ranting to exist without the mental interpretation and justification that keeps the mind spinning tales.

When the mind engages with the emotions ranting occurs. Learn to recognize the experience. Rest in that wordless recognition. As you do so, the energy supporting the rant will subside and you may find a place of peace from which to enjoy life.

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Post by (???) » Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:00 pm

You will come out of the ranting to the degree you recognize the perceptual difference between living as the rantor and living as one who observes the ranting dispassionately. The ranting is (in part) born of the passion, and identification as the rantor. Allow the feeling underlying the ranting to exist without the mental interpretation and justification that keeps the mind spinning tales.
Actually this is the very problem I am facing. I am slipping as a rantor quite unconsciously. Want to know how to get out of it. Actually watching the thinker helps when I am actually trying to watch, but soon I get engaged as the thinker. Body awareness helps, but soon I engage in the ranting slipping quite unconsiouslly into it.

I know I am identifying with the rantor, but the thing is that I am not able to get out of it. I have been trying this for the past month or so. I do get this when I am practicing it, but most of the time when I am preoccupied with other things in my life, I can't practice ET.

I have been able to work in the office as a force of habit with this internal ranting going on because after some years of work, some of us can work eventhough we are not fully aware of what we are doing. ( my dentist knocks off my tooth quite efficiently {?} while continuously chatting with his secretary :))

The problem is once I start trying to bring this awareness while working my usual rhythm falters and I make mistakes. When I start being aware while watching TV, somehow I do not feel easy with it.

So, what is it now?

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Post by astaroth » Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:29 pm

I know very well what you are experiencing.

My own situation is maybe not so different from yours. I have understood not a week ago (!) what my true nature is. I don't know if you had this experience, as well, but if not, it will come when you don't try too hard to find it. Espacially in spirituality you can't gain anything by forcing it.

I can only tell you: You're not alone. What you're experiencing, is absolutely normal. Don't doubt about yourself. Just don't force yourself too much. Patience is the key-word.

I can't stay present all the time, like you. In fact, I'm really present maybe 1/10 of my time - or even less. Just don't forget: As you said, you're very new to spiritual stuff. Just don't give up and don't give yourself too much pressure.

When you see, you've been unconscious, lost in thoughts, don't make a problem about it. I know this very well, the thoughts like "I've been so unconscious again, this will never work, I'm just not horough enough... etc." observe them as well - and relax. Just go back to hearing the silentness, wherever you are. To me this is the most powerful practise.

The way of spirituality to me seems like the way out of pressure into relaxation.
Look at the inner movies, look at the movie in which "you" are, with all the problems you take so serious. You're not the actor of this movie. You're the one sitting in the cinema. So you better take some popcorn and a coke.

Don't be cruel to yourself.
...you might remember me from such educational films as "Zen for couch-potatoes - The wisdom of never doing anything" or "Buddha from da hood - Was he a brother?"

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Post by seeker » Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:16 pm

Hello (???):

You said
I know I am identifying with the rantor, but the thing is that I am not able to get out of it. I have been trying this for the past month or so. I do get this when I am practicing it, but most of the time when I am preoccupied with other things in my life, I can't practice ET.

At the risk of saying what I'm sure you have heard before let me assure you that if you tell yourself you can't get out of it, you can't practice etc. you will succeed in failing. It is not just a question of positive thinking, but it is true that the world is as we believe it to be.

It seems that this habit is deeply ingrained. It will take much more than a month to overcome it. That's part of your life situation.

Like yours, my habit is very deep. I struggle with it all the time. You can come out of it but you have to begin with where you are. Accept the situation. Like Tolle says, become friendly with it. The bad habit is part of it; however, so are the seeds of the good habit.

To practice you must continually bring yourself back into presence without judging yourself for getting lost in your habit. Learn to laugh at it. Or simply acknowledge it. "There is a habit". Or be aware of the feelings. You sound frustrated because you keep losing presence. That's part of your situation. So accept it: "There is frustration/irritation/ whatever".

I can only give you my experience, but yours sounds very similar. You can practice, and realizing that you have lost presence is part of the practice. So are the negative feelings. However, the positive feelings are there as well.

You may wish to check out the posts in the "spiritual teachers" forum on Leonard Jacobson. His site is good and he is pretty sharp when it comes to dealing with emotions.

I hope this helps out.

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Post by Webwanderer » Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:17 pm

??? wrote:Actually this is the very problem I am facing. I am slipping as a rantor quite unconsciously. Want to know how to get out of it.
??? wrote:I know I am identifying with the rantor, but the thing is that I am not able to get out of it.
Let's see, where shall we begin?

Rome wasn't built in a day...

All things come to those who wait...

I want to learn patience and I want to learn it right now!

???, you have spent a lifetime ingraining your mind for internal dialog (rants). Charting a new course can happen very quickly, but even though the course has changed, those long held mental habits may take a while to air out - or maybe not. Either way it is what it is. The more you beat up on yourself for mental ranting the more power you give it. A gentle, loving approach to the foibles of the mind is more likely to help you gain clarity than self abuse for perceived failures.

If your looking for "how-to" pointers there are plenty around. Pick some you like and apply them. APPLY THEM! Analysis of technics is useful but if not applied, it just becomes more mind food. And here we are trying to starve out the story telling (ranter), or at least put it on a strict diet.

I recommend setting aside 30 minutes to an hour first thing every morning, where you can be alone and undisturbed. Get up early it you need to. What in earth could be more important than regaining a sense of your essential identity. We are talking about Re-gaining a direct sense of being that requires no mental justification or activity for its existance. It is regaining, because you already are that which you seek. It is the active, self absorbing mind, that has drawn you into believing that you are a separate individual, defined by concept and memory.

In truth, to be genuinely sensed, one must be consciously free of all concepts of what self is. It is an awareness of being without an awareness of self. All identifying thoughts are concepts that only distract from a clear sense of being.

Take some periodic deep breaths, and feel the present moment with all your senses. Be silent of mind, but intimately alert to what ever is present in the moment at hand. Do no analysis nor labeling of any kind. Simply rest in the clarity of thought free awareness.

It's okay to move into alignment with some favorite pointers, but don't dwell on the words. Pretend that you don't know any language at all, and that this is the first time you have ever been in these precise circunstances (it is). Repeat this every day until you regain a familiarity of what it is to be clearly present. Then begin to find opportunities throughout your day to rest for 5 minutes in present clarity, or one minute.

Once you are again familiar with your Natural State, the activity of a ranting mind will become quickly recognizable, and you will be able to drop the ranting without further concern. Always be patient and loving with your mind and it's rants. It's okay, really. It's just conditioned behavior that can be changed simply by cutting off it's fuel. To be emotionally critical when such events take place is to add fuel and extend the life of the dialog. Just recognize the stories when they happen and release them without debate.

Best wishes.

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Post by Seancho » Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:42 am

How do you get out of it?

Think about a monkey. Now try to stop thinking about a monkey. Get that monkey out of your head.

You cant get out of it! Because 'getting out' is just more of it.

Have you tried going into it?
If you stop believing in fear, is it still scary?

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