Honesty

This is the place to post whatever questions you have related to the teachings of Eckhart Tolle. The rest of us will do whatever we can to help you achieve a better understanding :)
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Intel
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Honesty

Post by Intel » Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:13 pm

I was just wondering. I read that Gangaji's second husband had an affair with one of their student/followers. After this Gangaji and her husband temporarily seperated then got back together. I think her husband was enlightened too so why did he keep this from her?

Aren't enlightened people open and honest to others, especially to other enlightened people?
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Post by weichen » Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:18 pm

In 1960s, most people in China thinks "make money and get rich" is evil.

Right now, more people on earth thinks "have affair outside marriage" is evil, less people think "forbiding people to have sex with more than one partner is evil".

Some people think "do things behind the back of spouse, not to be open to spouse on everything is a sign of bad marriage and lack of maturity or lack of enlightenment"; While other think "tell everything to spouse, be open to spouse on everything is a recipie of bad marriage and a sign of lack of maturity or lack of enlightenment".

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Post by kiki » Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:50 pm

Enlightened or not, there was certainly a betrayal of trust within the marriage. The word "enlightenment" carries with it its own baggage, and part of that baggage is the idea that so called "enlightened" people can't make bad decisions or make mistakes. They can and obviously they do. When a decision is made that may affect another there may be a strong pull by the ego to hide it. Remember, ego doesn't disappear, and his initial actions to prompt the betrayal and the following action of covering it up flowed out of an ego that reasserted itself. When an action is "needed" to be hidden then you can be assured that ego is behind it.

The bottom line is this: there are no "enlightened people". What the word points to is what your essential nature is; to what degree that nature is integrated into human interactions and relationships is another matter. It would seem that the integration of it wasn't firmly established. Who can say if it is ever fully established.

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Post by eyogateacher » Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:23 pm

Kiki

Do u mean to say that Enlightened people can also cheat in their marriage ?

I have read Poonja's life where he married his student who was far younger to him when Poonja was 60+ and when his first wife was still there .This created a lot of stir among his many students and many left him .I am not judging whether he did the right thing or not but what I want to know is do Enlightened people cheat in their marriage or do they feel they they have to be evaluated differently and not like normal human beings .

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Post by weichen » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:52 pm

Leaving his wife at 60 can be seen from another angle: he did not leave his wife before 60, it could be a sign of high level of enlightenment if his wife was unenlightened and he managed to see beyond the form and stayed with her (and love her) before 60.


The level of enlightenment is based on the extent one experience the vast peace and joy in the shoes of the source of creation, which is everlasting. So staying with elderly spouse before 60, and completely at peace with that, is a sign of high enlightenment. The lack of continued staying with elderly spouse does not speak much about this guy, just my opinion.

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Post by D'ray » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:52 pm

I don't know who these guys are, but let me tell my view of this.

DON'T PUT ROLES INTO PEOPLE.

This is life.

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Post by kiki » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:21 pm

Do u mean to say that Enlightened people can also cheat in their marriage ?
Like I said before, there are no "enlightened people". What appears to be an individual is just an appearance, just as the ego is an appearance - both appear within consciousness, your true nature. That true nature, pure consciousness, expresses through those appearances. As long as there exists a body/mind there will exist varying degrees of integration of that pure consciousness within the mind/body mechanism. In other words, you can know what you are at the deepest level yet not fully embody that truth while still acting within the full spectrum of the human expression.

A tree has no problem fully being something called a tree - does any tree fail the test of "tree-ness"? An animal has no problem fully being whatever animal it is - does any dog, for example, fail the test of "dog-ness"? Obviously not. But do they know that that is what they are? I think probably not. But when someone who is "awake" to their true nature strays from someone's conception of what that should be then they fail the test of "awakeness" in others' eyes. We simply can't be the judge of anything. As "humans" we certainly apply a moral code that is learned, but as the witnessing consciousness there is no judgment.

With the human expression there is the possibility of knowing what you are, yet still remain subject to the foibles of being a human. Putting someone on a pedestal because they are "awake" and then discovering actions that are judged as human failings creates questions about what awakening really is. Find out what it is to be awake, and don't confuse that with actions that can be judged any number of ways depending upon where you live and what is considered "right". In the truest sense actions are just actions, but when filtered through conditioning they take on varying degrees of morality.

Awakening doesn't stop with the initial discovery of the clarity of being. It takes time to integrate that being/ pure consciousness into the structure of the human expression. What lies before someone who knows what they are is allowing that to fully integrate itself while being something called a "human". And if someone "fails" by any kind of standard, that is just the play of life in this form we find ourselves in.

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Post by Agnieszka » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:28 pm

I suppose fully enlightened people wouldn't need any marriage, spouse, lover, nor... any other human being to live with him/her. They wouldn't need anything at all :D

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Post by sparks » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:43 pm

I don't know anything about the affair situation mentioned in the first post, but here's a little story I once read (either in Translucent Revolution or one of David Deida's books, can't remember).

(paraphrased):

A teacher of enlightenment was having an open discussion with some of his advanced students one day. One of the students confronted the teacher about the value of these teachings since the teacher was not living these truths in his own marriage. The student went on to point out many examples of where the teacher was falling short in his marriage and the reasons it was failing. While listening to the student, the teacher was able to hear the words while observing his own ego's resistance. He thanked the student and said "you're right, I am able to live the truth in most areas of my life, but in marriage I was completely blind."

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Post by Webwanderer » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:43 pm

Terrific explanation Kiki.

I've never been particularly fond of the term enlightened. It is incredibly misleading. It gives one the impression that there is some lofty plateau that may be achieved. The same goes for awakened. To assume such a "state" as enlightenment, or to be awakened, is ego trickery that separates such a believer into a perceived higher class of form than those yet to attain that state.

The truth lies in clarity of being. It's much like water. Sometimes water is so muddy that nothing can be seen but the mud that contaminates it. Other times it's more murky, through which vague images may often be seen. Then, as clarity increases, the waters are merely tinged with gritty obstructions where transparency is improved. Finally there may be pure clarity where nothing is obscured. There are within the extremes infinite variations of this increasing clarity.

In truth, Enlightenment may only refer to a degree of greater clarity relative to a more limited and obstructed view. Awakening then, is a process of increasing clarity. The Natural State is an open clarity, in presence, that allows a deepening realization and comprehension, to flow unobstructed into awareness.

As Kiki has stated, one may have experiences of awakened presence, but it can and usually does, slip away as ego/mind re-asserts itself as separate identity. It's best not to judge our teachers too harshly. Perfection does not lie in their behavior, but in the fundamental nature of life. Those teachers are often held to standards that they are unable to maintain, as their ongoing awakening is a work in progress, just as is our own.

Most teachers ebb and flow, toward and away from greater clarity, as does anyone moving on the "path" to a clearer understanding of being. Some on that path are simply swimming in water a bit clearer than our own. Those that are, may share some valuable pointers to clarity that can help us on our way. Pick and choose what helps, but there is no need to shoot the messenger.

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Post by darren » Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:08 pm

Gangaji should leave Eli and come live with me in the mountains. We could have super babies :D They would be able to levitate and stuff.

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Post by Agnieszka » Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:17 pm

:D :D :D I love it Darren

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Post by Intel » Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:49 pm

Lol. Its funny you mentioned that Darren. Whenever I look at the comments of a Gangaji video on youtube there are always sex comments about her. :)
I would lick your feet, but is that the sickest move?

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Post by darren » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:40 pm

Lol. Its funny you mentioned that Darren. Whenever I look at the comments of a Gangaji video on youtube there are always sex comments about her.
Yeah, I wrote them all :lol:

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Post by weichen » Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:02 am

One thing I love Byron Katie is her courage to speak the truth. Because only truth can set us free.

In her book "the work", "I need your love, is that true" she speaks about cheating on spouse.


teacher: If your husband loves you, he should not sleep with other women, is that true ? is that absolutely true ?
Client: yes, I think so. If I love my husband, I will only sleep with him, not other man.
teacher: that is your truth, honey!, not his truth!
Client: Oh, I got it!!! I never think about it that way. Yes, it is possible that he really loves me but he wants to sleep with other women. It is possible that his love for me is beyond sexual attraction, it has reached soulmate! It is possible that if he sleeps more with other women his love with me would actually intensify. It is possible that he did this behind my back because he wanted to protect my feeling, maybe he thought that I would rather him not tell me.
teacher: can you give me one proof that support this view?
Client: yes, in some country, men can have more than one wife, so there can be true love between one man and a woman while the man sleeps with other women.

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