social interaction

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astaroth
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social interaction

Post by astaroth » Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:10 am

Hi community!

There are still some things I'm confused about.
Even when I used to be a baby I ran away when other kids came near to me. I know, the past is done, not real. But even today when talking to people there is a lot of fear, almost always, more or less subtle. With this fear comes a feeling of tense. I observe this as a new chapter of the movie I'm watching, the movie about a strange guy called astaroth. I don't take it that serious as I did before. And I don't want anything to change - well "I" maybe wants, but that doesn't matter so much, right? :lol:
This fear also decides how I talk to people. And it makes my world grow smaller - if you know what I mean. I can't help looking to the ground for example or speak in a voice a bit tense. This fear controls me.

Understand me correctly: I don't want to change this. But I think I still haven't got the point. I know that other people can really do no harm to me, because I'm outside the forms. I know it's only the ego having this fear I observe and it's also the ego that is afraid of the fear and prefers relaxation over tense. But... you know... Why is this fear there even though I know that I have nothing to lose?
Is it the result of idenfication with the mind which is in the future and imagines all kinds of scary things that could do this person to "me"? Maybe suconsius... as I said before, it's a very, very old feeling.
I try to accept this fear, to let it be, give it space... It doesn't matter so much any more but it is still there and also the tense, the knot inside my stomach. You know, when talking to somebody you can't close your eyes, feel the emtion's energy, drop the stories and so on... How silly would that be!
Any good advices?

Thanks a lot,
astaroth
...you might remember me from such educational films as "Zen for couch-potatoes - The wisdom of never doing anything" or "Buddha from da hood - Was he a brother?"

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blueviceroy
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Re: social interaction

Post by blueviceroy » Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:41 am

I have fear . Not like I used to have fear ,it's just my own private fear that lurks in an almost extinct form in the make up of my energy, it's use is mainly as a portal for understanding when I meditate.

Fear of others is tough to pin down because like you said ,how can you focus on it when you are in the world being active.
Hmmmm I would say that you must find more of your true nature as love and focus on that emotion more intently when you practice inner understanding .

For me love is the end result when I seek an answer, not being loving or acting loving, but experiencing BEING love

All our journeys differ even though they are the same, so what works for one is meaningless to another , seek the creator with all desire ,desire only to be free of the selfish desires of ego by seeking a change from our divine source not as thought or words but by BEING the desire to change

Awareness is the end and the begining of our search

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astaroth
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Re: social interaction

Post by astaroth » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:05 am

Hmmm...

Thanks, blueviceroy, for your answer, even though I have to say that it didn't really clear my confusion.
Well... Thanks anyway...

astaroth
...you might remember me from such educational films as "Zen for couch-potatoes - The wisdom of never doing anything" or "Buddha from da hood - Was he a brother?"

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boogeyman
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Re: social interaction

Post by boogeyman » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:48 pm

I have the same kind of fear and I confront it on a daily basis.
I (ego) dont like it, but I think it's still for the best to face it regulary.

One thing I've noticed in myself, not so much directly, but someone pointed me to this,
that its nothing more than seeking approval. Your constantly thinking(mostly uncosciosly)
what the other person is thinking of you, does he approve of you, are you
acting normal in hes/her eyes. You are seeing yourself through other peopels eyes.
You are trying to be what other people think you should be. You are
trying to conform to what is expected from you in a social situation, and
your afraid that you will fail at this.

This how I see it in myself.

Hope this shed some light on the "root" cause.

Practise present moment awareness when your alone(or when your at ease) not just when your in a social situation,
because it's hard to do then and mostly your mind takes over. When you practise regulary, you'll notice how
social interaction starts to flow more easily, just by itself, without effort.

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Webwanderer
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Re: social interaction

Post by Webwanderer » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:32 pm

Very good post boogeyman, I think that covers social fears for most of us. It's not so much what we think of ourselves, but what we think others think of us.

The truth is that whatever they think of us, they are not seeing what we are so much as they are seeing what they think we are. And does it really matter what a limited ego/mind thinks of us?

I think not! :lol:

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Re: social interaction

Post by D'ray » Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:03 pm

Don't give a damn what anyone thinks about you. Rule #1
There's no "I" to become enlightened. The "I" can have spiritual experiences.

DON'T resist the RESISTANCE! The resistance is there. Walk into it. Feel it. Become one with it.

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astaroth
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Re: social interaction

Post by astaroth » Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:41 pm

On the level of mind, this is no problem to me...
But what about this feeling of tense?
...you might remember me from such educational films as "Zen for couch-potatoes - The wisdom of never doing anything" or "Buddha from da hood - Was he a brother?"

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Re: social interaction

Post by Foxtrot » Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:27 pm

You know, when talking to somebody you can't close your eyes, feel the emtion's energy, drop the stories and so on... How silly would that be!
What you can do is, when you have time to sit by yourself, do so, and recall in your mind what you where doing and feeling just before the fear arose in you.Then see the incident as it happened and feel the fear arise and the way you act as it comes fully into your body. Then you can question the fear directly. What is this fear all about really? When was the last time you felt his exact type of fear? And when before that time have you felt it? Ask the feeling directly, and allow a memory to pop into your mind rather than actively trying to seek out or remember any specific episode. You may or may not see a simularity between the differnet memories that come up for you. If there is something about the situation you could change so that you would not trigger the feeling of fear in yourself, what would it be?

The questions and speculation in your post are good ones, but you just need to be asking yourself and those feelings directly instead of asking others. When the answer comes from inside, it is much more transformative, and you will feel shifts in the way your body holds and feels those feeelings.

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sparks
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Re: social interaction

Post by sparks » Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:30 pm

I can only think of 3 possibilities based on my own experiences. The first may sound harsh, but it's something that Vernon Howard once said during a Q&A that has stuck with me and helped me many times.

1.
I know that other people can really do no harm to me, because I'm outside the forms.
Do you know this from personal experience or because someone else said it? I have caught myself many times trying to live according to a "truth" that I have not personally experienced, and it caused me a lot of frustration. In this case, return to what you personally know as fact, and work from there. This could be as simple as the observation "I feel fear when interacting with others," which could then be taken further to "I feel fear" without an explanation, just a sensation. It's usually our explanations or stories about things that complicate matters. Without an explanation, there is nothing to solve, there is only something to experience. (easier said than done)


2. If you have broken identification with that fear, then it could just be momentum that needs to burn itself out before disappearing. In this case, continued observation will weaken it further.


3. If the body reflects something that is not visible in the mind, then it might be another pattern that is still unconscious. Many teachers have said that thoughts are often too fast for us to notice, but we can notice the physical effect they cause. In this case, awareness of the sensations/symptoms while avoiding "thinking about it" will eventually make the hidden thoughts visible.

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astaroth
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Re: social interaction

Post by astaroth » Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:27 pm

Very good answers, very helpful... I thank you all a lot.

To sparks:
I would agree with you when you say that my intellectual understanding of things is much further than my direct experience. I've had genuine experiences and I have them every day, growing stronger. But I always used to be the philosophical guy, which isn't helpful at all looking for answers that can't be found on the level of mind. :wink:

The thing is: Just a few days ago I sat in complete sweet silent emptiness, there were thoughts but they came and go like from a far place and I didn't pay much attention to them, because I found much more joy in the beauty of the silence that was almost touchable around me.
Then a group of people who wanted to take me to a party came in and - BOOM! - within parts of a second everything was lost. There were tense, I couldn't hear "my" thoughts any more. I was just like a machine and I felt very bad.

I know I can't do anything but be very, very present at these moments instead of just reacting to the situation, reacting like a dog that is edged into a corner. Espacially #3 of your tips helped me a lot.
Again I come back to a thing which I think more and more often the last days: What more can I do than be as aware as I can?

Thanx all,
I hope some day not too far away I can help you with your questions
astaroth
...you might remember me from such educational films as "Zen for couch-potatoes - The wisdom of never doing anything" or "Buddha from da hood - Was he a brother?"

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Re: social interaction

Post by D'ray » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:11 pm

sparks wrote: 1.
I know that other people can really do no harm to me, because I'm outside the forms.
Do you know this from personal experience or because someone else said it? I have caught myself many times trying to live according to a "truth" that I have not personally experienced, and it caused me a lot of frustration. In this case, return to what you personally know as fact, and work from there. This could be as simple as the observation "I feel fear when interacting with others," which could then be taken further to "I feel fear" without an explanation, just a sensation. It's usually our explanations or stories about things that complicate matters. Without an explanation, there is nothing to solve, there is only something to experience. (easier said than done)
wow, something to think about. I really don't know how this thing is handled in my life.
There's no "I" to become enlightened. The "I" can have spiritual experiences.

DON'T resist the RESISTANCE! The resistance is there. Walk into it. Feel it. Become one with it.

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Webwanderer
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Re: social interaction

Post by Webwanderer » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:53 pm

astaroth wrote:Then a group of people who wanted to take me to a party came in and - BOOM! - within parts of a second everything was lost. There were tense, I couldn't hear "my" thoughts any more. I was just like a machine and I felt very bad.
Don't make too much out of it. You're in a transition zone between clear awareness and ego identity. There is likely to be some wavering, just be patient and steadfast. The fact that you felt bad indicated you recognized the difference. That's progress. Even though it's likely that the ego made a judgment on falling out of clarity, it's a minor issue. There's nothing wrong here. Learn from it and move on.

Be disciplined about finding opportunities to return to that "sweet silent emptiness". With experience, that clarity will bring light to other areas of ego/mind and its conceptual attachments.

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Shion
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Re: social interaction

Post by Shion » Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:08 am

Hey boogeyman, that avatar is beyond words and great post, we are bothering for approval from the interlocutor mostly because we are expecting something or fearing to lose something.

Sparks, great insights, especially Nr.1 is a common point.
A behaviour (in my experience) changes when perspective shifts.

And on Nr.3 about unconscious patterns, again I would say that resolution of such patterns happens while seeing more and more clearly.
Fears come because of the feeling of separation. Is the ego that has this nature of separation.

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Re: social interaction

Post by shappy » Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:25 am

Hey astaroth,

there's a lot of great advice here.

Speaking from personal experience, I went through something similar for a while. It gets better with time. I realized that I was too concerned with doing things "right" (whatever that means). After a while this concern went away and I was interacting with people in such a calm and confident way... it was very rewarding.

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Shion
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Re: social interaction

Post by Shion » Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:28 am

Astaroth, if you feel overwhelmed by that, you may try to go to a good hypnotizer.
It may help to change subconscious programs and it seems a powerful thing.
Not that I have personal experiences though, just heard and read.

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