How do you trully surrender not intentionally?

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as.it.is
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How do you trully surrender not intentionally?

Post by as.it.is » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:53 am

Hello group,

I have a hard time surrending to what is, because I keep reminding myself intentionally to surrender but I know that by doing that is the ego is doing it not I.
Anytime we intentionally do something we can rest assured is the ego doing it , the person we call me.

How do we go beyond ego and me and surrender to what is?

Because if we try to manipulate the experience and have sometype of thought intervention it's already the ego doing it?
When you awake it will be your biggest regret.

Dale
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Re: How do you trully surrender not intentionally?

Post by Dale » Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:00 pm

I know what you mean, there are times it (my ego, my awareness?) thinks everything is just a strategy, and I am very good at keeping my story alive. Perhaps, if you focus on your breathing, and observe your thought patterns about surrender (or whatever is bubbling up) it will help. Observe the struggle, observe the sensations in your body, the information coming through your senses. Or listen to the space between words, or thoughts or music. ET has many hepful suggestions and techniques.

Surrender is very difficult, sometimes I think its only when everything else, every other possible way, is exhausted, when we're trapped and cornered like a frightened, wounded animal -- when nothing else works -- is it possible to really and truly surrender.

Surrender is giving up, its a death of the you made up of all the memories, past experiences, "why it is the way it is stories" you have created and it never comes easy. At least it hasn't for me. Particularly in those times when life is difficult, I cling so tightly to the story of me -- maybe because its familiar -- I've realized fear is key in my clinging.

And maybe its harder for men, women seem to be better equipped psychologically when it comes to 'just being with something', without trying to change it -- trying to fix it.

It takes courage to surrender. To leap into the void. The only time I'm really able is when I'm fully in the present.

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Re: How do you trully surrender not intentionally?

Post by D'ray » Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:39 pm

The problem is that, it is too simple. Your mind cannot believe it -- that all this enlightment and the fancy consepts make it so complex. Though it is the most simple thing in the world. Being pure awareness the nothingness behind everything. It is indescribable, sorry :mrgreen: :D
There's no "I" to become enlightened. The "I" can have spiritual experiences.

DON'T resist the RESISTANCE! The resistance is there. Walk into it. Feel it. Become one with it.

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Re: How do you trully surrender not intentionally?

Post by Cleath » Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:29 pm

What helps me in these times is when I come back to the fact that anytime we try to do something we set up a conflict. We are resisting the present moment by trying to get to this place called Surrender. See if you can feel the resistance increase when you try to surrender. Surrender isn't something that we do, it just happens. It happens through being present, as previously mentioned. :wink:

Chad

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Re: How do you trully surrender not intentionally?

Post by weichen » Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:25 am

When the house is on fire, and your intention to surrender fails. This maybe a good thing that intentional surrender fails sometime.


True surrender to xyz comes naturally without intention when what does xyz mean to you changes. xyz (previously thought to be bad) now looks like gold to you. So "true surrender to gold" easily come out of reaction, this surrender is a function of the mind.

But for the mind to see xyz (previously thought to be trouble) as gold, it takes many spiritual practice.

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Re: How do you trully surrender not intentionally?

Post by weopposedeception » Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:55 am

I'm thinking that in order to be unconditional surrender there must not be any ulterior motive (I'll surrender so I can get peace, enlightement, etc.). I have found that in order for me to surrender I must rest in that place of not knowing. There is some fear there because the ego feels that in order to survive it needs to KNOW and CONTROL everything. Ramana Maharshi talks about complete surrender to God as an alternative to self-inquiry.

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Re: How do you trully surrender not intentionally?

Post by weichen » Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:31 pm

I'm thinking that in order to be unconditional surrender there must not be any ulterior motive (I'll surrender so I can get peace, enlightement, etc.). I have found that in order for me to surrender I must rest in that place of not knowing. There is some fear there because the ego feels that in order to survive it needs to KNOW and CONTROL everything
The phrase "unconditional surrender" is tricky and different people have very different understanding to this phrase.

"unconditional surrender" can mean at least three different things
a. at some moments, that person can shift to a higher sense of self (e.g. pure awareness, deathless one life), this state is a state of unconditional surrender (of little me's personal stake in the delusion of material world).
b. even living in the frame of little me, that person's spiritual experience and material world experience has altered the meaning of some material thing, little me once and for all changed his attitude to these things (academic career, high paying senior stock broker job etc).
c. in challenging life situation where the old reaction is resistance or attachment, but that old reaction is watched as not me. There is oscilating between the two states (little me stressful state vs higher sense of me unconditional surrender state), this oscilation allow little me to take the necessary actions, and surrender to what is left. "Unconditional surrender" is a short-lived state that keeps oscilating.

In the last scenario, most challenging life situations (where unenlightened people would have absolute resistance, or absolute attachment), what enlightened people have is not "uncondtional surrender", but some space around absolute resistance or absolute attachment. This space can be called not knowing (not believing that something is so bad that needs to be resisted with all cost, or not believing that something is so good that needs to be attached with all cost). But enlightened people may still take the action that move in direction (seek pleasure and avoid pain) that is similar to unenlightened people.
Last edited by weichen on Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How do you trully surrender not intentionally?

Post by astaroth » Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:19 pm

I have found myself a lot of times in the situation of thinking "Oh, all these negative thoughts are the proof of my resistance. I have to accept the now. Okay, now I accept... " and there was this voice, cruelly laughing. Of course, this didn't work. This is not acceptance. Acceptance cannot be done. All thoughts which have an attachment of "I", all mental activity reacting to and judging other thoughts is a mental "doing". Just let the mind do what it likes to. Listen to it's story, but also become aware of the feeling itself, what is a lot more important. The feeling is real, the story is not. The story is just an attachement to it which tries to tell you that the feeling is something personal, something that has to do with you and because of that makes a problem out of it.

Don't try to fix or even do something on the level of mind. The negative thoughts are not the resistance itself. They are nothing to be rid of. I have found that there isn't really a "negative" feeling. There are feelings like sadness, anger, frustration and so on... But none of these feelings is "pure negativity". This kind of negativity only rises when we don't want to have something inside us what is already there.

When you are sad, cry. When you are angry, scream. Okay, maybe this would be a bit exaggeration most times (but not always) :wink: . Free yourself of the belief that there must anything be done. Don't believe the story that is going on with a feeling. Anything in your head which claims to "I must..." in this case... "I must accept" is just another idea of the false self which claims to be you. Don't resist the story. But see it for what it is. Something imaginary what has nothing to do with what is going on right now - and what is only a non-real part of past you haven't allowed to be yet. Look around you and become silent for at least a little second. Do you now see that there is nothing going on right now what causes all the inner "bad" stuff. Is it real?
It isn't. It's just past. Imaginary. It's something you haven't allowed to flow through you maybe days, maybe weeks, maybe years (or even minuetes) ago. Don't believe the story and allow the feeling to express itself.
...you might remember me from such educational films as "Zen for couch-potatoes - The wisdom of never doing anything" or "Buddha from da hood - Was he a brother?"

marshall21
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Re: How do you trully surrender not intentionally?

Post by marshall21 » Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:31 pm

Hi

I think you are caught in a trap...a trap created by the ego. The very question of how has two ramifications: one that there is a doer and second, the doer is trying to go to a different time dimension and escape "what is". Any act of movement with its hidden motive is to find peace of mind..right? and this imagined state of peace of mind is another product of mind which is currently cluttered and unable to see. So what you want to do is ultimately is mentally change the "what is" into its opposite which can never happen because any hope of doing so is again a hope of the ego which only thinks in terms of the opposites...or ..in terms of "either/or". Now, the question arises, how to stop trying to escape the trap. Again, this is another trap because the very act of not deliberately trying to escape has the hidden motive of finally escaping and being able to transmute "what is" into its opposite. So what do you do. Whan the mind sees that any movement on its part, any ideology..or any justification is another trap...it stops...doesnt it? At that point you completely become present in the now and deal with the situation with its presence which is actually in the now and not the totalality of it or its projections of doom or whatever. That is surrender. But trust me any act to reach that state is another trap. My advice is do not think about surrender..or do not try to mentally recah the state or escape "what is" or present moment. Just witness non partially your thoughts, the contradictory urges to escape the situation and the consequent projections of doom due to the situation. There is a saying in Zen practice. It says..do not choose. Only when we make a choice that trouble starts. When you witness and let all the thoughts and feelings to crop up and refuse to choose...then there is that a spurt of stillness...maybe an iota only..which makes u consciou enough to take that one immediate step. I know the situation must be difficult but may be u shud give my advice a try if you feel there is any merit in it.

Or if nothing works and the situation is bad and you feel stuck in the situation...try looking at your own past...m sure however much old you are..you must have been in some terrible situations in the past too...at that time too..things looked as if they would never end and there was no future...but you did come out of it...more often than not...the answer never came on a platter...it did come step by step...so just be in the situation and know that everything passes..i guess that is true surrender.

Hope it helps..

take care :)

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tikey
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Re: How do you trully surrender not intentionally?

Post by tikey » Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:17 pm

I know that I truly surrender when my mind stops.
Im just a cloudless sky :)

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as.it.is
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Re: How do you trully surrender not intentionally?

Post by as.it.is » Sun Dec 02, 2007 1:34 am

marshall21 wrote:Hi
So what do you do. Whan the mind sees that any movement on its part, any ideology..or any justification is another trap...it stops...doesnt it? At that point you completely become present in the now and deal with the situation with its presence which is actually in the now and not the totalality of it or its projections of doom or whatever. That is surrender.
What happens when "that "which sees what's happening on the mind , no it does not stop the mind !I wish it did.

the mind never stops that is a myth, that is not a belief it's a fact , if the mind stops you are dead.

If you think when it's all quite up there on the mind when no thoughts are happening, the fact that you are aware that nothing is happening up there is the mind telling the mind that.

There's nothing to do ! I don't mean to be coming hard on you guys but all you hear on these posts are recipes of what to do and all it is are a bunch of mind manipulations something all zen masters become really good at it.

Prove it to me that you are not your mind? then I will surrender.
When you awake it will be your biggest regret.

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Re: How do you trully surrender not intentionally?

Post by kiki » Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:17 am

Prove it to me that you are not your mind?
Nobody can prove it to you; you have to find it out for yourself. If you don't, then you will continue to think/believe that you are the mind, and suffering will continue.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
---

marshall21
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Re: How do you trully surrender not intentionally?

Post by marshall21 » Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:01 am

Hello group,

I have a hard time surrending to what is, because I keep reminding myself intentionally to surrender but I know that by doing that is the ego is doing it not I.
Anytime we intentionally do something we can rest assured is the ego doing it , the person we call me.

How do we go beyond ego and me and surrender to what is?

Because if we try to manipulate the experience and have sometype of thought intervention it's already the ego doing it?

I know where you are trying to come from. To answer you what I would suggest is that your post mentions trying to go beyond the ego. Have you tried to ask yourself what is this urge to go beyond the ego and from where did this urge emanate in you and can you feel its energy which is prompting to "go beyond" the ego. This is happening because you are dissatisfied with whatever is happening and then suddenly your mind out of its dissatisfaction creates an imagined egoless/peaceful/enlightened/surrendered state and tries to reach there. Is that again not a play of the ego...I mean..from what is you are trying to move into a projection of what is but you have to understand that projection of egoless/surrendered state is again from the mind..isnt it? When i did say in my previous post that "the mind stops" by very implication it means that you see the mechanism of the mind in its totality..with all its aspects...one that is not surrendering and at the same time the projection of the surrendered state which creates the urge to make an effort to change "what is" into what is not. Because you have been led into believeing that that surrendered state is peaceful, will rescue you and etc. But any imagination or desire for that state is again a product of your subtle mind. Whan you see the mind with all its conflicts..the fact that it is the same organ which is screwed up and it is the same organ which is projecting, demanding and attempting to a state which has been termed "surrendered/peaceful/egoless", you notice the yin yang states of the mind..dont you and at that time is there a need to surrender...i do not think so...because that moment you see the fallacy of your own mind...it has led you into believeing that it must surrender because it has to be quiet...the moment you see it for what it is without having any urge to alter it...that is surrender...in that surrender...the mind may still operate...but you are then capable of smiling at it and not getting sucked into its projections. They say, the very urge to go beyond is a barrier. The reason why great teachers like Krishnamurty and ET never beyond a point gave the description of that supreme state because then the ego makes that into its goal. It becomes another egoic trap. Krishnamurty would put it very beautifully by saying always that "the observer is the observed". The mind is which is dissatisfied is the same mind which projects the surrendered state and tries to go beyond itself. Recognizing this non judgementally and letting them be..is in true sense of the term..surrender and that is going beyond but if you notice there is no movement of "going beyond" in this act...it is pure recognition.

I hope it helps. Do write if you still unclear.

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as.it.is
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Re: How do you trully surrender not intentionally?

Post by as.it.is » Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:07 am

kiki wrote:
Prove it to me that you are not your mind?
Nobody can prove it to you; you have to find it out for yourself. If you don't, then you will continue to think/believe that you are the mind, and suffering will continue.
Kiki, we both know the mind can dissasociate it self from it self , meaning the same way your mind can acquire thoughts or knowledge it's self aware of what it acquired, suffering can't stop anytime when more information or more awereness of the root of the suffering is reached and the mind realizes that it's pointless and the suffering is gone.

You could say I call awareness and you call the mind .. it means the samething for us both so what's the deal?

separating awareness and mind causes a division therefore keeps the individual seeking for it's truth when we are already born with it.
When you awake it will be your biggest regret.

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Re: How do you trully surrender not intentionally?

Post by as.it.is » Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:23 am

marshall21 wrote:
Do write if you still unclear.
I appreciate your response,

Why don't you quit this forum? quit spiritual seeking ? stop all this nonsense?

Your mind will hold yourself back, there's something here that resonates with your mind...the more you believe what you are not the further away you will be from the truth.

Total freedom from the mind is impossible, is like saying the fingers wich you type are not the fingers of your body.

Spiritual teachers can be very misleding. I can't certainly tell you what's true and this place either.
When you awake it will be your biggest regret.

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