How do you trully surrender not intentionally?

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kiki
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Re: How do you trully surrender not intentionally?

Post by kiki » Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:31 am

as.it.is wrote:Kiki, we both know the mind can dissasociate it self from it self , meaning the same way your mind can acquire thoughts or knowledge it's self aware of what it acquired,
I disagree. "Mind" isn't aware of thought, mind IS thought. Formless awareness/ consciousness is what illuminates the various forms, one of which is thought. When thought is absent awareness becomes self-evident. With no thing to illuminate, it is left standing on its own, aware and alert, though now aware of itself. It takes no thought to realize there aren't thoughts. That's why it's called "conscious-ness" - consciousness simply "knows", that's all it ever does. When it doesn't know about this or that particular thing it is simply left shining, still "knowing" and aware, still conscious.
suffering can't stop anytime when more information or more awereness of the root of the suffering is reached and the mind realizes that it's pointless and the suffering is gone.
Suffering doesn't stop because of any kind of understanding in the mind or any acquired information. There may be a temporary and conditional stoppage of suffering because of some understanding, but the root of suffering stops when the illusory sense of self is seen for what it is, a phantom comprised solely of thought, and identification with that self dissolves.
You could say I call awareness and you call the mind .. it means the samething for us both so what's the deal?
No, it doesn't mean the same thing. Not if you are saying that "awareness" is content and has form. If that's so, content within what? For something to be a "thing" (which is what you are implying if you equate awareness with mind) it must exist in something - what does it arise in, what is its container?

There is the immediate seeing of thought and its changing forms as well as the disappearance of thought altogether. In order for "change" to register there must be something unchanging as the backdrop, something that doesn't change; that's what pure consciousness is - the unchanging formless backdrop of every changing form.
separating awareness and mind causes a division therefore keeps the individual seeking for it's truth when we are already born with it.
What causes the individual to keep seeking is thinking they are separate from everything else and therefore thinking they lack something to make them complete, so they seek that something in the world of form, not realizing that they are already complete as formless awareness.

Nothing is separate from consciousness/awareness, even mind; but mind is modified consciousness - consciousness as form. Whatever has form is subject to change - it will have a beginning, middle, and end, unlike pure unconditioned formless consciousness, which is the ever present backdrop to all form. Being "formless" it can have no boundary, no beginning, middle, or end. Consciousness precedes mind; mind develops and changes, increasing and/or decreasing in its ability to function as it arises and dissolves within formless pure consciousness. Because of consciousness there is the "knowing" that mind changes. But mind is not aware of itself - no form is aware of form, only pure consciousness is aware of form; it is pure consciousness that is aware of mind. This is self-evident when mind activity ceases.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
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Re: How do you trully surrender not intentionally?

Post by as.it.is » Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:35 am

Thanks kiki,

I am aware of the mind and it's totality and step back from it.

The mind is contained in awareness but awareness could not be contained in mind, I can see it now awareness is contained in awareness and so on .

I read your response about 5 times and it felt like all Et's teachings came together on that reply, I think my mind will not be asking questions for a while now I have much to ponder on that response.

I appreciate what you guys are doing and thanks for that reply.
When you awake it will be your biggest regret.

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Re: How do you trully surrender not intentionally?

Post by no won » Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:10 am

as.it.is.
Prove it to me that you are not your mind? then I will surrender.
The "me" that wants proof will Never have proof. The me is demanding conditions and expectations which must be met first then the "i/me" will surrender.All catch 22 and mind tricks probablly fear based.
There is no me, no mind, to do the above so who is going to have proof and KEEP IT. Thoughts, empty, what is one thought if one picture can tell a thousand words, already thought is severly lacking.Images with thoughts, empty, where are the other senses like scent etc. Memories all thought, empty.Its all empty thought arising and falling.

The way out is to give up without any expectations or pre-conditions.

Prove to 'me" that YOU ARE the mind !! If its true take control of the mind and surrender the mind. You can't because its not you or yours. What is before "mind" observing mind could that be Awareness, that which you already are. Truth doesn't need proof only "me" wants proof. Peace

edit.
On Truth: If truth has to be proven first was it really the truth to begin with, what would it become with proof only a Thought and then its empty/dead. NO, the Truth is alive and is only available in the Present/Now not in the mind of past and future of empty thought. Awareness is living truth which you are. Who ? needs Proof..
Sorry didn't have time lol to read thru' all the replies.

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Re: How do you trully surrender not intentionally?

Post by weopposedeception » Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:22 am

Great reply, Kiki. The whole essence of non-duality right there. I'm printing it out for myself. Thanks.

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Re: How do you trully surrender not intentionally?

Post by as.it.is » Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:35 am

To trully surrender is to surrender to the ilusion , ego etc.. But if the ego does not exist and it's nothing , why do we have to surrender to nothing?

but the ego and ilusion is there why?

With no intention behind it , will the ego surrender on it's own ? just let it be..

what happens with intention behind it to surrender?
When you awake it will be your biggest regret.

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Re: How do you trully surrender not intentionally?

Post by no won » Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:19 am

what happens with intention behind it to surrender?
Suffering happens
With no intention behind it , will the ego surrender on it's own ? just let it be..
There is no ego, its a word a pointer to the "me" which in reality does not exist.

How to surrender to nothing ? When its realised that things are temporary, fleeting, and empty, who and what is there to surrender. There is nothing to let go of except the thought of letting go.Observe the thoughts as they pass by allow and watch, even the thought to let go, watch and allow that thought also.See they are empty, just shadows passing through.Through what ? is there anything there for any thought to attach to ? observe this, is it also emptiness.Allow any effort to fall into this FEELING, all thoughts that arise allow them to arise and obseve them fall into emptiness.Hear the silence, just listen if its there its there if not its not.As thoughts subside and they will the silence becomes more noticible.Allow this FEELING to wrap itself around everything that is known or arises ( thought, fear, wants, etc. ) and observe them disolve into PEACE, no mind. Hope it helps even a little.

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Re: How do you trully surrender not intentionally?

Post by MasterDee » Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:04 pm

Kiki, you are great master, I'am glad you are here :P and no won good point. Aware of the silence, self-aware that you are, aware who you are.

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