starting with zero one more time

This is the place to post whatever questions you have related to the teachings of Eckhart Tolle. The rest of us will do whatever we can to help you achieve a better understanding :)
Larryfroot
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Re: starting with zero one more time

Post by Larryfroot » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:14 pm

oooooh nice one...........
Many a mickle muches a markle.

piotr624
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Re: starting with zero one more time

Post by piotr624 » Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:02 pm

I really wanted to reply to this...I think a lot of people are giving you advice on what to do. BUT - I have come to the conclusion that nothing can ever be accomplished by following. You have to understand. THERE IS A MAJOR difference between knowing the words intellectually, and understanding the words emotionally, personally, through experience.

When I first read Eckhart Tolle's book, there were many lines and paragraphs that resonated with me. I thought, yes, now I finally understand how everything works. Now I can just follow this and live in bliss. But I realized, over many years, that you CAN'T do that. You can't ride a bicycle by learning how it works from a book. I'm sure a lot of things in Eckhart's book are true, and he probably has reached the state of awakening. But I remember even Buddha saying that you should not just believe anything that anyone says, which was repeated by another spiritual master that I've been studying named "J. Krishnamurti". He said "You have to be a light to yourself".

I think books are valuable to awaken you to new possibilities, but you have to investigate it yourself, and come to understand them on your own terms. I believed when I was very young that I could be like a machine, and do everything I learned from a book perfectly. But that is pure artificial behaviour, and it always falls off of you, like in that movie Memento where the guy continually forgets his memories, everything just fades. Or you continuously attempt to apply a certain mindframe to change yourself, but you find that you are just forcing a theoretical truth on yourself rather than coming to a natural understanding of it and thus creating true change in your life.

I've been asking myself hundreds of questions about these philosophical and spiritual concepts for a while, but I always find that I don't know enough. Or that the idea that nothing can ever be accomplished through thought is pessimistic and experience based, thus not an objective truth. I ask questions about things that make logical sense, yet I still do not implement in my life naturally (like parts from Eckhart Tolle's book). Why does this happen, I wonder to my mind? Because - "To know, and not to do, is not to know" - an ancient chinese proverb that Ralph Nader told a group of us at an EWB (Engineers Without borders) Conference. I guess that last part is pretty clear to you already, so I will finally provide some advice to you:

I have found, personally, that I can come to my own conclusions MUCH more easily when I am quiet, and I just observe. I'm not sure if you can also do this by "trying", or whether you must randomly realize this in order to be able to understand things in such a peaceful manner (don't enforce silence on yourself!), but it has been very valuable to me.

Anyways, don't worry about it too much. Its great that you are still aware and trying to find the truth. Inevitably, you will, because one way or another the wrong paths will be exhausted and you will be left with the truth. Good luck!

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Re: starting with zero one more time

Post by Larryfroot » Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:46 pm

There is no way anyone can ever express the conclusion of spirituality in words. Because it is not an explanation we find there, rather it is an experience. I had tried to get my head around the more esoteric teachings for years, before realising I was using the wrong implement to achieve understanding. I was using my mind that could only try and run the conclusions and absolutes from its own limited and selective view of reality. But eventually I understood that understanding is not the province of the mind. It is an affair of the heart.

I had also come to the conclusion that peace of mind has nothing to do with the mind, and everything to do with the heart. And truth can only come through peace, and peace can only come through acceptance. From peace the unclouded mind opens and senses what is beyond form and beyond time.
Many a mickle muches a markle.

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Re: starting with zero one more time

Post by haniwow » Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:15 am

Thank you, Larryfroot. I just came back on the site and I want to spend serious time going over your answer... Thank you again. Hani

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Re: starting with zero one more time

Post by Larryfroot » Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:32 am

Hani,

I am very glad that you found the post worth considering. Recently I have been helping a friend in her accepting the unacceptable, and some very practical pointers have arisen from this exchange. Firstly what exactly do we / can we accept when we are faced with stuff that seems to be too much for acceptance. Well, we start with accepting how it makes us feel. In one sense, how a thing makes us feel is, for us, what that thing represents. So accepting how it makes us feel, to use that acceptance as a portal into now is to gently erode and wash away that (or those) feelings. And so the thought that we were so scared of accepting has its reason for being eroded and washed away. Without that feeling it formally gave us, it loses its power. It becomes what it always was, a flat monochrome image that has lost all of its strength and threat, for those qualities were granted to it by our resistance.

So seeking to accept how something makes you feel is often a very good way to begin an acceptance practice on the stuff that gives us no time to accept before an instinctive and gut-felt resistance immediately kicks in.

And a decent rule of thumb in acceptance practice is that accepting how something makes you feel is as valuable as accepting the thing itself. It may take a while longer as we may find that we have to accept the feeling of wariness we experience when we approach those feelings. But even that points back to accepting what we feel. Some situations are complex. To analyse them is to become rather lost in teh technicalities of what is the most pressing situation within the maze to accept. Accepting how the whole situation makes you feel is an immediate and accessible way back into peace. It is a very useful tool to keep in the toolbox.
Many a mickle muches a markle.

haniwow
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Re: starting with zero one more time

Post by haniwow » Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:06 pm

Larryfroot, your post was so welcome. I read it this morning for the first time. My internet was down and somehow I missed this one. I'm printing it out to get every word. How interesting, I've never looked at it that way. I've always thought of the ego as "the devil" literally. Wounds, yes, I could feel a shift and then I became detached and lighter. Thank you, and also for the other post that I think was on the "drudgery" thread. I wanted to post on that "did the laundry". I actually, when addressing the thoughts and wounds that needed compassion, found myself in the flow of things. The smoothness of getting the tasks done, not with resentment which is how I approach everything it seems. So I'm watching for the wounds and the feeling of pain... I also know that I think it's about money now, but when I have money then the thought pops in "is that all there is". A merry go-round of wounds! I like it. I'm going through my day like that.
haniwow

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Re: starting with zero one more time

Post by haniwow » Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:07 pm

I must have really "glanced" over it. I knew there was one I had to reread and this was the one.... Found it!!! Thank you, thank you.....

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Re: starting with zero one more time

Post by haniwow » Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:13 pm

plotr624.... Thank you. I too was a student(?) of J. Krishnamurti and yes, I understand completely what you are saying. And finding the right portals at the right time and the right situations is what I have found to help the most. Acceptance to me feels very organic and also a release of the mind. I was in a 12 step program for many years, and in it's purity it is absolutely brilliant. They use a bridge but the emphasis is on acceptance.. the hardest of all... thank you.
Haniwow

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Re: starting with zero one more time

Post by Larryfroot » Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:29 pm

To thrash a point or two to death...

We really do mistake the pain of a wound for an attack of an enemy. While we assume that our pain is some kind of attack, the relationship we have with our thoughts and our mind is going to be antagonistic, and all that arises from such a relationship is more of the same. To approach our worst thoughts in a totally non-judgmental way, that has no baggage brought to it -as in 'this thought of xyz makes me feel so abc' - and no distractions in the form of fulfilling a restlessness instead of facing the difficult stuff ticks all the boxes for an acceptance experience. Thats the acceptance part done.

It's at this point that the mind quietens. So much of our useless, repetitive, uncreative and compulsive thinking comes from our mental and emotional resistance to that which we cannot change or move away from. Acceptance literally equates to mental peace in this regard.

Next comes the forgiveness via compassion, love and gentleness.

Strangely there are often moments in our lives where we spontaneously attain a place of detached observation of the content of our minds. Sadly we tend to use this space merely as a launching pad for negative criticism of the content, and as soon as we do that, we are back in the middle of it once more. We are instantly implicated in the churning roller coaster called the 'human condition'. The vital moment for the vital pause passes without us even knowing it was there! However by treating the wounded thoughts of a wounded mind with compassion and tenderness (rather than the usual kicking we treat it to) our attitude softens, we become less condemnatory of the content of our minds. The increased mental space and peace experienced makes us far more aware of, and creative with, the observation platform. We can then transform our use of the 'observation platform' from a launching pad for criticism or resentment (or any one of several possible negative engagements) to a point where we can offer the gifts of an open heart to the madness.

So what can we expect from this utterly counter-intuitive manouver? On paper it looks like the recipe for a psychic dogs-dinner and an utter shambles to boot. There are two principles that work for us in all this counter-intuitive malarky. Firstly we can discover for ourselves that it is impossible for a negative thought to be loved and for that thought to remain negative. Instead it is subsumed into the same love that we bring to it. This is because of the two, love is real. Secondly, when we criticise, resent or even hate our thoughts, we had best consider that we are identifying, on one level or other, with those thoughts we so resist and resent. So our negativity towards our negativity defeats our aims for happiness and peace by two tokens. Firstly the unconscious message given back to ourselves by resenting thoughts that we identify is that we resent ourselves. Thats pretty ugly, for starters. Secondly, what do we get when we resent resentment, hate hatred or frustrated with frustration?

Onward multi-faith soldiers, going as to war - thats what we get. The unwinnable war. We wage war on our ego's. With all the qualities I wished to expunge from my mind I used against my mind! Yes, I resented resentment, hated my hatred and did all of that insane stuff. I adopted the lexicon of the ego ('conquer', 'attack', 'overthrow', 'overcome') as well as its weapons and forged on. And managed to attack my ego, and in so doing perpetuated its presence in my experience.

Over time I have come to the considered conclusion that if I approach my ego with anything other than acceptance and forgiveness, all that is happening is more ego. The ego is a nasty, vicious, cunningly cruel and deceptive phenomena. But if we treat it as if it is all of that then we are lost once again in its machinations. Acceptance and forgiveness out-foxes the old fox. The ego finds these qualities utterly frictionless. There is absolutely nothing that it can hide in or exploit.
Many a mickle muches a markle.

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Re: starting with zero one more time

Post by HermitLoon » Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:40 pm

Thanks Larry!
I observe Ego with acceptance, humor and love - like a mischevious grandchild - what Yogananda describes as "That little Ego floating in me" :)
(and in "others" :wink: )
Peace

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Re: starting with zero one more time

Post by Peaceman » Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:56 pm

Nearly got my drums out reading "starting with zero one more time" got a rythm to it hasnt it? Anyways couldnt be bothered to read all the posts am just cutting to the chase... seems your problem is your big ego(no offence meant) the bigger the ego the harder it is to quieten it down...we reinforce our egos by talking to people mixing with people...establishing ourselves in society..the more "noise" in our lives the more "ego" ...bit like too much coffee!! so maybe if you detach yourself a bit more you might find it easier?

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Re: starting with zero one more time

Post by flowertea » Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:16 pm

for larryfroot.....each of your posts on this thread....wow....were amazing and beautiful and magical....thank you!

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