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starting with zero one more time

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:45 pm
by astaroth
Hi guys!

After some time I have decided to start with zero again, reading PON again. Zero knowledge, zero understanding.

So I wonder...Is there really anything I can do to awake from these illusions about myself I have in my head? I somehow don't manage to stay in a state of no-mind, I just can't do it. There is a very good pointer I have read. Adya who said "trying to be still is the best way not to be still. It is like driving with a motorboat on a quiet sea."
But still... Oberserving absolutely every kind of thought, always hearing the silence and so on appears like an impossible effort of concentration to me...
Have I just not found the now? Is there still too much unconscious belief in the illusions? I really can't say...
"True meditation" all the time feels like fighting against the mind... even if I somehow feel that it is not real when I step out of the dream and look around me... I wake up about 1000 times a day :lol: but the dream comes back after a few seconds. And also after awakening there is something like very subtle mental movement... Hard to describe. A very subtle "I" in the background, maybe I can call it "thoughts which have not yet manifested". I think, this is what keeps the dream alive. How to handle the god dam illusionary mind-self which doesn't want to be rid of it's story?

Very grateful for every kind of answer again,
stupid astaroth :roll:

Re: starting with zero one more time

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:37 pm
by no won
After some time I have decided to start with zero again

STOP ! Rest right there my friend you are already home.

Re: starting with zero one more time

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:52 pm
by OnlyNow
ET says there is a momentum behind our mind/thought processes and our ego and the painbody strategies, afterall this has largely been the human 'way' for aeons

....so even when you start to allow stuff to be, and witness what is occurring in your mind it doesn't mean everything will feel ok immediately

.........what it does mean though when applying this 'allowing' and 'witnessing' a space is observed around these events whereby the energy is transmuted in these processes to power presence.

Re: starting with zero one more time

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:36 am
by no won
and witness what is occurring in your mind it doesn't mean everything will feel ok immediately


Beyond feeling ok. What if there is never a feeling of OK ? Go beyond
feeling ok. Who is witnessing OK or not OK. You as awareness are observing both so you could not be either, who is the witness, is there "i" there. Be the witness, the observer, then realise what is before " i ". This is what is waiting to be discovered, what is the first knowing before the 'i' arises. Peel away the layers of ' i ' ....is there 'i' left. Be what remains. There is no one there to do any of this and when this is known directly it is seen that the search is actually the Falling away of "Mind " by no one's effort it just looks like I'm doing it. Its happening by itself, no effort to be...... peace

Edit: astroth wrote,
A very subtle "I" in the background, maybe I can call it
"thoughts which have not yet manifested".

This here is so close, this very subtle ' i ' in the background, be with that. It is the first arising of " i " Do not make the mistake of saying] "thoughts which have not yet manifested". As this very so subtle " i " is the first intuitve knowing of I Am before the word is thought or spoken. What is observing this, as this is also observed, what is prior to this first arising " i ". Stay with this astroth don't try to loose this " i " or put effort into disolving it but rather discover what is under/supporting it. Don't add anything to it with ideas or words, just WAIT in observation and it will be revealed. This is such a good place to be my man, relax with it you are there already, peel away the layer. peace

Re: starting with zero one more time

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:38 am
by boogeyman
I find helpfull to do everything as fully as you can.

If there's as rambling mind, let it ramble.
You don't try to stop it, but rather "attend" it. It's more of an attitude of "Now I will make non-sensical thoughts" :)
And thats the truth, you are making them, but now more consciously.
Doesen't matter if it makes any sense. At least for me it slows thought down, as long as you "participate" in the thoughts
and not just trying to avoid/stop them.

It is as it is, so enjoy the ride

Re: starting with zero one more time

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:13 pm
by Larryfroot
hallo Astoreth, good to see you still groovin' and twistin' to the best the 21st Century has to offer.

I have practiced meditation until all it resembled was a battleground between my intelligence - which wanted to meditate - and my compulsive ego-driven mind, which wanted to think about chocolate cookies and sex. In other words, from the basis of meditation I had an experience of my mind that was a non-stop radio between my ears. And although I was trying to meditate on the nice fluffy things I could not for the life of me find out where the off switch was. And so I developed a certain relationship with my mind. I began to see it as the alcoholic monkey with too much time on its hands. And did I resent it muscling in on my meditations, time and time again. Lots of resentment there. And so I began to see it as my enemy...and all the things I wished to eradicate in my mind I used against my mind. I resented its resentment. I hated its hatred. I became obsessed by its obsessions. The list goes on and on, Astoreth. And so 'the good fight' against the ego via the mind it had enslaved continued. I failed to see that not only was i using its tools against itself, I had the same resistance-ridden mind-set that it had. So armed with its weapons, and percieving with its mind-set, I set out to wrest control of my mind from the grip of the ego. And what happens? One mental form of the ego - the one I was resisting became replaced with another form of the ego - the one I was resisting and fighting with. meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

I attempted to bully (force) my mind into being my friend. Now that is sort of....dumb. However for many people this explanation and these experiences will ring true. All that I hated about my mind and its content I used against my mind and its content. What can we expect from this encounter? More of the same.

For many people this closed-loop self-referential system continues all their lives. They never see the diabolical trick that is being played out on them by the ego.
And it is an awesome trap. It is so simple, so obvious that it can hide right in front of our noses. Not only that it dresses itself up as a noble quest, a noble cause, a noble fight. And so lifetimes are spent in endless struggle that at the end only feeds the pain body and strengthens that which we are seeking to eradicate.

However, the ego remains conquerable, but not through force, not through indulging in negative feeling, thoughts or wishes against it, for that is the ego itself arising as its own pretend-enemy. The ego is conquerable through love, compassion and understanding brought to the feelings and thoughts that arise from it. It requires us to stop treating it like an enemy and begin to treat it like a wound. We do not love a wound. Nor do we hate it. Instead we simply bring in the desire to remain healthy by attending to the wound.

This is very strange advice, and it comes with one clear word of caution - never forget that the ego is a murderous thought system. It is public enemy number one. But to treat it as such is to buy into the ego thought system again and again. It is an enemy who cannot be treated as an enemy - well, not if we wish to be free of it.

A friend of mine had a brain damaged cat. One day it discovered its tail and was alarmed to see that it fiollowed him around everywhere. So it slashed out at its tail. In return, this tail hurt him in return. Soon the full on fight between cat and tail was so intense that it required intervention and a trip to the vets to remove the spooky tail. The more we lash out against our minds for being unruly, the more we create the conditions for our own pain, and blame the ego for causing us the pain. Well...yes, the ego does cause the pain, but it does so primarily by allowing us to attack it, blame it, and hate it. Attack, blame, hate. Hmmm seems like the ego is getting a good deal out of us attacking it. We experience pain and impute an enemy. But what would happen if we experience pain and think 'wound' instead?

We begin not to attack the ego and its enslaved mind directly, but instead to remove its influence from our reactions to it. This is done by observing our more intense painful thoughts and allowing ourselves a moment to go beyond the words or situation the words represent to enter into the underlying feeling beneath the thought itself. Its like 'Wow! Where did such a painful thought come from?!' When we sense the underlying feeling we can begin to see how we have resisted and pushed away and attacked the very aspects of our minds and our experiences when in fact, compassion, love and understanding would be the only sane response.

We have always responded to these painful feelings by describing how it feels to ourselves as a thought....this feeling makes me feel so sad...and then there are a thousand and one thoughts that spin off from that. And it obscures the sadness, what to mention of the feeling that gave rise to it? No, the cause of all that unhappy and painful feeling is lost in a welter of resentment and even anger. We resent that which most needs our love and our healing. If we react to our minds in a sane manner, we act in ways that are in accordance with the facts. If we react to it using the egos old tired stories about how this sadness (for example) arose and all the resistance towards all the subsequent thinking we act in ways that in accordance to the egos fabrications and lies.

Welcome your distractions, and the feelings that arise about them in your meditations. Welcome the impatience, the frutration, the boredom. Welcome them, accept then fully and forgive them, and in so doing you will welcome, accept and forgive yourself....and this will free you.

It is a mystery is it not? That which we most despise within ourselves must be understood as wounds, treated with acceptance and understanding to be healed, and in that healing we become whole. Do not despise these children of your ego....they suffer too, and long for release as much as you. And it is within your power to do that.

So at the end of the day, we reach acceptance. A simple practice, but simple does not mean easy. So much can be written and said about acceptance...but to be brief...recognise the futility of struggling against that which you cannot move away from nor change. Utterly futile to even try. A DVD should be made of people who get stuck in traffic jams to demonstrate the useless futility of resistance. And how painful resistance is. Yet it is what gets us thinking and keeps us thinking in useless rings around the same things, over and over and over again. Trace back a chain of thought. Any train of thought. Ninety per cent of the time it will be rooted in resisting a situation or a person that you do not like and do not want. OR it will be excited and stimulated at the prospect of moving away from it or being able to change it. Even then that excitment is somehow stressful and impatient and shows us how dissatisfied we really are! It is simply the other side of the resistance coin. Take some time to do this, to track back any train of thought to its root.

So now one can begin to see how much - say around ninety per cent - of our useless, recursive, obsessive, uncontrolled thinking arises from resistance.

Acceptance pulls the plug of our minds from the power socket of resistance. Acceptance brings space, an awareness of awareness, peace. In fact, perfect peace is perfect acceptance. If you look for peace, you will find a search. The very act of searching will destroy the peace you are looking for. Peace can only ever be accepted as an essence, an expression of your own nature of Love. That is the profound gift of acceptance.

having said all that, we can be in situations where the crap is simply too massive, too strong, and the pull towards resisting it can be overpowering. In these instances I can only say that there is a little miracle in the heart of acceptance practice. We need to learn acceptance to accept. But how can we learn to accept when the things we need to accept are so unacceptable?

We can sometimes offer no more than a little willingness and sincerity of a good intent. We can sometimes have so little room for manouver, but we can always, on one level or another, simply accept acceptance. And the amazing thing is that these tiny, tiny things - a little willingness, a little intent can open up a space for us. It is like kicking a football at a train and knocking it sideways. Its power is completely out of proportion to its size! I dont know how. It just is. SO even if we think the words 'I accept this whole-heartedly' and there is no acceptance, even if we think the words 'I offer this pain love, compassion and understanding' and there is no love, compassion and understanding' there is still power there, as willingness and intent have been stated. The beginning of the end of the compulsive thinking about whatever is so hurtful in your experience has begun.

Astoreth...you are not stupid, or weak, or dull. All this is about, is simply being human. That's all. We all struggle with the human condition...in that sense we are all perfectly equal. Its just that we can engage with the worst of ourselves in love and find that the practice of doing that is a profound portal into peace and into healing. Take care, Astoreth...take care.

Re: starting with zero one more time

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:11 pm
by haniwow
first off, SOOOOO GLAD I FOUND THE FORUM AGAIN. Yesterday I was like you.... the monkey had taken over. I knew it had but the feeling was horrible. That's when I use the portal of listening to the silence in the noise around me. This is where I look at the colors and objects around me. This is where I have to affirm that in the now is divinity and I have to be in my body and present. But...... it was tough and I understand that battle of fighting against the mind. Thank you Larry for your comment. All my pain was because of resentments and disappointments, but they had happened last week.... last year.... 40 years ago, and I was falling in the pit of "myself". I did have help from Ben and Jerry's but I stayed with it. The pain did not go away, but this moring it was gone. I do, however, when reading Eckart, never can get to that magical place of feeling energy iin my body. I just never can. I don't know what I'm supposed to feel, but I don't recognize an energy... Thanks for bringing up this topic and thanks for the comments.
Hani

Re: starting with zero one more time

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:53 am
by OnlyNow
thanx larryfroot

Re: starting with zero one more time

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:19 am
by Larryfroot
Thank you, good nowbies.

I have come across the phenomena of wonderful and incredibly inspiring breakthroughs continuing for a while, and then they sort of fade, sometimes very suddenly. The effect this has on the individual can be pretty traumatic. But there is a way around this, and that is to accept the disappointment. Allow acceptance and you allow peace. And peace is the bedrock of happiness, as how can there be happiness without peace?

The point about acceptance - or one of its many points I should say - is that it gives by taking away. We seek something we know exists, but are still of a mind that peace is something we need to add to our lives, when it is with you as an innate expression of who and what you are, beyond form. How then, can seeking peace offer peace? It cannot. But acceptance allows the layers of thought and yes, disappointment to fade, revealing what is always with you, as you, all along.

So there is nothing to add, not even peace. There is only stuff to be released, to be accepted and forgiven. And as you accept and forgive these states of mind, so also you accept and forgive yourself. You become free in that process.

Re: starting with zero one more time

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:08 pm
by haniwow
I just read Larryfroot's post and I should read it every day. Acceptance.... it's a little bit like telling a fat person not to eat. I feel the truth, but I still don't know what to do with it. There are thoughts that produce anxiety, whether based on real or imaginary facts. Let's say the pain of loneliness. There's a stabbing feeling in the gut and chest, and of course, one wants to get rid of the pain. Do we accept the pain, just as pain, do we accept the thought "I am lonely", or do we realize it's just a thought, a phenomena and watch it as a cloud passing by. I've been doing this for years, and yes, larryfroot, I have said for twenty years, it's the cop chasing the thief and they are both the same person, so it's the cat chasing it's tail. I realize that's what I've been doing forever. I can't get out of it. I'm trying to understand what you are saying. You can play a lot of games to get rid of the pain, like self talk, talking to the inner child and as awful as if sounds, sometimes that helps me, but what kind of help is that? It's the same as chocolate chip cookies and shopping. So to get beyond this whole mess, one wants to stop the thinking process which is impossible. So that's where I am stuck and have been forever. Because I don't like the feeling of lonliness, which doesn't mean I'm desperate for company because most of the time I prefer my own company to that of others. There is a yearning for something to fill up that hole. Excitement, food, a perfect man/companion... people adoring me, success with my writing, which hasn't happened, and those are just some of the thoughts that await me when I wake up in the morning. They sort of come at me, saying, hey, we're here, don't forget.... How do I love them, how do I have compassion for them. Do I do a Byron Katie process, you know.... is it true? But that seems so much work, like you spend your entire day going, Is that true? sometimes I remember what jean Kline said about going global. You sort of project outwards and out of your head and see the world arouond you as a painting, as an artist, and that way your thought process is in the background. But the minute you let up your back in the whirlwind of the same thoughts.... bla...bla...bla... so I live constantly with the bla...bla...bla, until there is some excitement, fullfilment, money, nice people a good day.... I have noticed that practicing the power of Now has helped me not to go into the whole drama the ego wants to pull me in. I can stop and realize where we're going... but there is a constant nagging and anxiety staying one step ahead of being pulled into the darkness of thought.
Thanks.

Re: starting with zero one more time

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:47 pm
by derAua
Just read Larryfroots post.
If you look for peace, you will find a search.
The very act of searching destroys it. I have just had my "ET-experience". And I have already started to search... funny, I feel like just a sentence sometimes reminds me to just be.

Re: starting with zero one more time

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:17 pm
by Larryfroot
If Imay quote haniwow as part of a quote - response format. Not pretty, I know, but effective at times. So.....
I feel the truth, but I still don't know what to do with it
.
Truth is what works, so there is nothing to do with the truth. We expect the truth to be another explanation. Yet at the end, the truth is an experience that imbues and illumines our thoughts and actions. All we need to do with truth is remove the obstructions that stand between who we are and who we think we are. There are thoughts that produce anxiety, whether based on real or imaginary facts. Let's say the pain of loneliness.
There's a stabbing feeling in the gut and chest, and of course, one wants to get rid of the pain. Do we accept the pain, just as pain, do we accept the thought "I am lonely", or do we realize it's just a thought, a phenomena and watch it as a cloud passing by. I've been doing this for years, and yes, larryfroot, I have said for twenty years, it's the cop chasing the thief and they are both the same person, so it's the cat chasing it's tail. I realize that's what I've been doing forever. I can't get out of it. I'm trying to understand what you are saying. You can play a lot of games to get rid of the pain, like self talk, talking to the inner child and as awful as if sounds, sometimes that helps me, but what kind of help is that? It's the same as chocolate chip cookies and shopping. So to get beyond this whole mess, one wants to stop the thinking process which is impossible. So that's where I am stuck and have been forever. Because I don't like the feeling of lonliness, which doesn't mean I'm desperate for company because most of the time I prefer my own company to that of others.
Acceptance is a matter of beginnings. We have a million and one things to accept, and always the thing to accept at the outset is how you feel about what you feel. It sounds like sophistry, I know. But it is a way of beginning an acceptance practice. In order to get anywhere with acceptance we have first a concept - acceptance itself as an idea that looks logical and may well work. Then we hone that into a technique. Then we make that technique into a practice. But finding a starting point can be tricky...to accept the entire core of our suffering is simply too scary. So we begin elsewhere and I have found that accepting the disappointment and frustration of, say, 20 years of chasing shadows to be a very valid way to begin.

To get beyond this whole mess we do have to stop the thinking process - but we can stop it not by focusing on our thoughts alone, but by examining the relationship we have with our thoughts. The whole idea of there being a chain of thought to begin with is a highly fallacious one. The mother of thought is not the previous thought. It is the feeling reaction to that previous thought. A thought makes us feel x...and from that feeling x, another thought arises, which makes us feel y, and from that feeling y, another thoughts arises etc etc. So it is not our thoughts that drive the process onwards, but rather our resistance to their content which manifests as another feeling response which gives rise to the next thought. We have a relationship with our thinking based on resistance, then we are living within chains of thought. So the first thing to consider is that acceptance is about a new kind of relationship with your thinking. One that pulls the plug from the power socket of the resisting mind.

So beginning with how the whole thing makes you feel, that specific feeling is an excellent place to start. But how can one even begin to undertake such an undertaking? The pain and the loss is too intense...and the thought of facing up to all of that seems like psychological and emotional destruction. Well, we begin where we begin. With one tiny miracle, and that is a little willingness and sincere intent. We can mouth the words "I accept...insert painful experience or situation of your choice here....." and actually feel no such thing. They seem empty and useless. But rather than concern yourself about this, just have a little willingness, an open mind, a curious mind...a little willingness to investigate and engage with this so called 'monster'. And understand that you are also sincere, you do have the intent of one day really beginning to use those words with full intent and purpose. Then use the words. "I accept this ......" No massive deal, no judgment that it seems so tiny compared to the so called monster. Just simplicity..."I accept this......" and add a little willingness and sincere intent.

The amazing thing is that a little willingness and sincere intent can and does open up a little bit of space. just enough so that after the next week or so, you can begin to insert a little more little willingness and sincere intent into the words.

There is a yearning for something to fill up that hole. Excitement, food, a perfect man/companion... people adoring me, success with my writing, which hasn't happened, and those are just some of the thoughts that await me when I wake up in the morning. They sort of come at me, saying, hey, we're here, don't forget.... How do I love them, how do I have compassion for them.
Those thoughts are wounds. Thoughts of a wounded mind are wounds. In one sense when you show them gentleness and acceptance, you show your mind gentleness and acceptance, and the mind being a mirror, will reflect those qualities back at you just as it does the resentment of an unforgiven past. Its so strange, we see within us pain that we would be so alert and alive to dealing with it was to manifest on our body, but if its internal, well thats a different matter. If we treated other people like we treated our minds, we would be up in court for cruelty. Have compassion for them because they are the sum total of the human condition arising in your experience. For as long as we continue to misunderstand our pain as coming from an enemy rather than from a wound we will continue to resent and resist the patterns of our thinking and the thoughts themselves.

Yes the ego is a deadly bit of kit. But if we treat it with the same resentment, anger and frustration that it represents, believing it to be deserving of the worst kind of hell, then what do we get? The ego attacking the ego, ad infinitum. So yes, we take the ego seriously, so seriously that we are not going to include its toxic mind-set in the cure. Which is why its so valuable to not treat the ego as the mass murdering toxic waste sludge it is. Because when we direct our resistance and our hatred at the ego a) we regenerate it and b) we 'give' it a solidity and a reality it simply doesn't have.

Which is why it is so helpful to understand that what hurts is not the ego, but the wounds from living (or should I say existing) underneath the ego's tyranny. What hurts are the wounds that we have spent so long in hating and despising. Wounds that we pick at, scratch and generally abuse in the hope that they will get the message and go away. So those wounded thoughts. Is it so illogical not to show them love or compassion? For as you heal them, you will heal your experience. Forgive them, and you will forgive yourself. Resistance binds the world, forgiveness sets it free.
Do I do a Byron Katie process, you know.... is it true? But that seems so much work, like you spend your entire day going, Is that true? sometimes I remember what jean Kline said about going global. You sort of project outwards and out of your head and see the world arouond you as a painting, as an artist, and that way your thought process is in the background. But the minute you let up your back in the whirlwind of the same thoughts.... bla...bla...bla... so I live constantly with the bla...bla...bla, until there is some excitement, fullfilment, money, nice people a good day.... I have noticed that practicing the power of Now has helped me not to go into the whole drama the ego wants to pull me in. I can stop and realize where we're going... but there is a constant nagging and anxiety staying one step ahead of being pulled into the darkness of thought.
Thanks.
Constant nagging and anxiety...accept them with love for they are wounded children of an orphaned mind. For any thought or state, when loved, will transmute into the same love being shown it. It is almost as if all these thoughts and fears recognise their true home in love...and simply slip into the shining sea. A poetic metaphor to end on. But, I hope, an apt one.

Re: starting with zero one more time

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:57 pm
by Webwanderer
Larryfroot wrote:Constant nagging and anxiety...accept them with love for they are wounded children of an orphaned mind. For any thought or state, when loved, will transmute into the same love being shown it. It is almost as if all these thoughts and fears recognise their true home in love...and simply slip into the shining sea. A poetic metaphor to end on. But, I hope, an apt one.
Indeed... worthy of a plack on the wall. (Now let's talk about this hope thing... :lol: )

Re: starting with zero one more time

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:45 pm
by Larryfroot
A plack on a wall is better than a plack on the back...

Re: starting with zero one more time

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:30 pm
by Onceler
Plaque on the baque...I believe.