help-Where does the SOUL fit into all this?

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nili
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help-Where does the SOUL fit into all this?

Post by nili » Sun Nov 02, 2008 3:15 pm

Hi,
could you please clarify this for me;

If i understand it right:
-There is the eternal part in me, and the rest is "form" which is continuously changing (a dance of atoms).
-The eternal part in me is in essence the same for everybody, which is why we are "one".
-recognizing the Oneness of all things is love.

so, do I have an "individual" soul at all?
if so where does it fit?

Before, I assumed my soul was the eternal part, and that is was unique.But this can't be the case if we're all one.
Is it a separate concept altogether? not related to either form or the eternal oneness?

thanks
Last edited by nili on Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: help-Where does the SOUL fit in to all this?

Post by kiki » Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:41 pm

First of all welcome to the board, nili. Secondly, wow - what an opening question! Some comments:
f i understand it right:
-There is the eternal part in me, and the rest is "form" which is continuously changing (a dance of atoms).
-The eternal part in me is in essence the same for everybody. which is why we are "one".
-recognizing the Oneness of all things is love.
This sounds like pretty good understanding to me.
so, do I have an "individual" soul at all?
if so where does it fit?
Adhering to the nondualistic angle, there is no individual soul. But who can say for any certainty? It reminds me of the student who asked his enlightened master what happens after death and was shocked when the master said, "I don't know." The student then says, "But you're a buddha", to which the master responded, "Yes, but I'm not a dead one."

This question is at the heart of people's fear of the ultimate question about the future, what comes after death. Nobody knows what the future holds and so "hope" arises to give comfort, and nobody knows what comes after death so the idea/concept of "soul" developed. What better way to keep "me" going? The ultimate fear of "me" is annihilation, which is what ego faces if the idea of an individual soul is absent, and more than anything ego wants to survive. The idea/concept of "soul" seems to bring solace to those who have fears of what happens to "me" when I die. It is a very convenient way of avoiding the possibility of honest inquiry into what's true right now. The most fundamental question in discovering what's "true" is to find the nature of what I actually am because everything else is viewed in relation to that.
Before, I assumed my soul was the eternal part, and that is was unique.But this can't be the case if we're all one.
Is it a separate concept altogether? not related to either form or the eternal oneness?
Well, here's something to consider: Perhaps what survives death exists on a mental plane, and it is on the mental plane that the "idea of me", who "has a soul" continues in some form, only to reincarnate again on the physical plane until the ultimate realization of oneness arises. A book that you might enjoy is Chuck Hillig's excellent little book, "Enlightenment for Beginners." He very simply and clearly goes into these ideas.

Once again, welcome to the board.
kiki
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Re: help-Where does the SOUL fit in to all this?

Post by Sighclone » Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:22 am

nili -

Several of us have been exploring this recently. Eckhart is decidedly quiet on this subject. His primary comment is in "Stillness Speaks", page 52: "Reincarnation doesn't help you if in your next incarnation you still don't know who you are." I have read quite a bit about this, and am still not certain about it. But here is where I am today: Source has manifested many things and many life-forms on many levels of existence and consciousness. Karma exists. We can create karma and dissolve it. Part of the "play" or lila in our manifested world is also play in the world of cause and effect. Eckhart's goal is for us all to find/discover our true identity. Our true identity is beyond forms which exists on any level. That said, we may also exist as part of a game we created, and, after we die, find "ourself" with a bag of karma on "the other side." Eckhart's message will be the same "over there."

Nanci Danison has recently written a book called "Backwards" about a near-death experience which blends much of nonduality into some conventional near-death-experiences in her remarkable discussion of her NDE. You will enjoy it.

So, do you have a soul? Yes and No. :)

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: help-Where does the SOUL fit in to all this?

Post by James » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:21 pm

Interesting discussion indeed.

The Power of Now, Chapter 7: Portals Into The Unmanifested, on the last page of that chapter is a section called Conscious Death. It provides some additional material for reflection on this subject. Thanks to an online version of the book, I was able to copy it below.
James
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Conscious Death

Apart from dreamless sleep, which I mentioned already, there is one other involuntary portal. It opens up briefly at the time of physical death. Even if you have missed all the other opportunities for spiritual realization during your lifetime, one last portal will open up for you immediately after the body has died.

There are countless accounts by people who had a visual impression of this portal as radiant light and then returned from what is commonly known as a near-death experience. Many of them also spoke of a sense of blissful serenity and deep peace. In the Tibetan Book of the Dead, it is described as "the luminous splendor of the colorless light of Emptiness," which it says is "your own true self." This portal opens up only very briefly, and unless you have already encountered the dimension of the Unmanifested in your lifetime, you will likely miss it. Most people carry too much residual resistance, too much fear, too much attachment to sensory experience, too much identification with the manifested world. So they see the portal, turn away in fear, and then lose consciousness. Most of what happens after that is involuntary and automatic. Eventually, there will be another round of birth and death. Their presence wasn't strong enough yet for conscious immortality.

So going through this portal does not mean annihilation?

As with all the other portals, your radiant true nature remains, but not the personality. In any case, whatever is real or of true value in your personality is your true nature shining through. This is never lost. Nothing that is of value, nothing that is real, is ever lost.

Approaching death and death itself, the dissolution of the physical form, is always a great opportunity for spiritual realization. This opportunity is tragically missed most
of the time, since we live in a culture that is almost totally ignorant of death, as it is almost totally ignorant of anything that truly matters.

Every portal is a portal of death, the death of the false self. When you go through it, you cease to derive your identity from your psychological, mind-made form. You then realize that death is an illusion, just as your identification with form was an illusion. The end of illusion - that's all that death is. It is painful only as long as you cling to illusion.
~Eckhart Tolle

nili
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Re: help-Where does the SOUL fit into all this?

Post by nili » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:25 pm

mmmmh. While I'm very grateful for your input, I'm somewhat troubled by it.
I guess my mind needs the pieces of the puzzle to fit in nicely.

The spiritual transformation in my life (as for many others) has revolved around the idea of a soul.
It is now clear to me that many of us confused the soul with the eternal part in us.
(heard of the soul-series anyone? :) )

I suppose a step down from the soul could be the often quoted "higher self" which i guess could be a temporary soul for this lifetime.

However, if i continue to run with this teaching, then i guess many aspects previously attributed to the soul could actually be attributed to the ego.
For example; demonic forces are not tempting/attacking the soul but rather stimulating the ego (jealousy, hate, greed etc).

This would be further reinforced by the fact that I'm directly aware of the ego while the soul has always been an elusive concept, impossible to observe.

New insights would be appreciated...thanks again

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Re: help-Where does the SOUL fit into all this?

Post by Webwanderer » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:36 pm

Nili, there are two excelllent avenues of exploration into the nature of the soul, the higherarchey of being or what happens when we die. Both of these are useful endevours for research into our greater nature. One is, as Sighclone has mentioned, NDE's (near death experience). The other is OBE's (out of body experience). There is a great deal of information on both subjects in cyberspace. Here are some links to some good sites.

NDE:

http://www.near-death.com/book/nothing_ ... l#zero_one

http://www.iands.org/

OBE:

http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/start.html

http://www.out-of-body.com/techniques/benefits.html

There are many more, so check out the links that these sites offer. Be cautious though, there is a lot of BS out there, and each individual's report is limited by their own experience, based on their own limited world view. All NDE's and OBE's are not created equal.

WW

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Re: help-Where does the SOUL fit into all this?

Post by James » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:47 pm

Nili
Perhaps it is more of an issue of semantics. Words like Soul, God etc. often after many conceptual overlays. Probably why Eckhart rarely uses the word Soul, it has different meanings to different people as does the word God.

Have you ever looked at A Course In Miracles? It provides plenty of context for understanding Self, ego, Spirit and the origin of separation. Some of it is available online. Eckhart likes to refer to it now and then, such as this quote:

"Nothing real can be threatened
Nothing unreal exists
Herein lies the peace of God."

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Re: help-Where does the SOUL fit into all this?

Post by eputkonen » Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:38 pm

nili wrote: so, do I have an "individual" soul at all?
if so where does it fit?
All individuality is form and will one day end. No form is eternal.

The soul still exists...it is just not eternal.

What no longer applies (is true?) if the soul is not eternal?
Namaste,

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Re: help-Where does the SOUL fit into all this?

Post by Chariot » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:20 pm

Consider that what you are seeking to understand cannot be understood by the mind. It can't be known by thinking about it.

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Re: help-Where does the SOUL fit into all this?

Post by letitgo » Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:33 am

Hello nili,

Andy referred to Nanci Danison's book "Backwards", which does an excellent job of outlining the three parts of our being. What part is our animal body, what part is our soul, and what the heck is our light being self up to while we're trudging around in this existence? She took about a dozen years formulating this information after almost total recall of her experience. Since I'm not as self-free as some on this forum, these questions drive me to gather more information and I felt very deeply that this book answered many of my questions.

According to Backwards, and with a little of my own beliefs thrown in, we choose a host animal form which has the proper tendencies/instincts/traits which best fit our desired life lessons and experiences we want to focus on in this lifetime. These human host are perfect for our learning because they have the capability to allow us the gift of amnesia, so each lifetime we are capable of coming in fresh. This is why some very high spirits who want to be a bum in a lifetime have this capability.

Our soul is the portion of ourselves which keeps coming back and sometimes even brings baggage. In the book, Destiny of Souls, Michael Newton studies what happens in between lives. This book finds information from subjects through hypnosis and explains the process of choosing a host. We only bring back a portion of our light being selves in any given incarnation because we must remain safe while learning our lessons in this form. All of the books by Brian Weiss, which also taps into our subconscious for information, are absolutely wonderful in showing the incredible intricacies of this process.

Our light being self seem to be almost oblivious to our human plight until we purposefully create an intent to connect with it. Sanaya Roman has several books which act as guides in making this connection. Our light being selves have all power and access to Source. And we have access to our light being selves. This is the part of ourselves that can easily fathom Oneness. Until we are able to access that Oneness, there will continue to be confusion, and justifiably so, as to who we are. Until then, I'm happy to understand the above, and "occasionally" get a glimpse of the "peace that passeth all understanding". (I think it should read, "all human understanding".)

Thanks for you post, Norm
To the world you may be one person, but to one person you may be the world.

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Re: help-Where does the SOUL fit into all this?

Post by Sighclone » Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:42 am

Nanci Danison has a second book now out for distribution to advance readers only called "Backwards Guidebook." I am an advance reader and will be reviewing it for the local newspaper soon. Of interest here is her assertion that some humans are not "occupied" by a soul. Sometimes the Light Being/Sourcebeam will simply depart. Other humans are simply not chosen. Eckhart's silence in this area is important. He really does not care about interim/dualist levels of existence. He cares about stripping away everything but our basic identity in Source.

Danison is very clear that Source is non-judgemental. She also asserts that karma is something restricted to the earthly plane. She also makes the point that you do not have a soul, you are a soul, or Light Being. Light Beings are creations of Source which serve as kind of spiritual antennae in the soul plane and the earth plane. But Light Beings know they are a part of Source - a part which has separated so that Source can self-realize in a variety of Its creations. They also have vision which is not restricted by time - they can see into the future. She became aware of a changing "epoch" we are now entering, but her memory is not fully clear here. She joins a large chorus in this announcement.

She also discusses manifesting events in our lives with intention and attention - similar to both the Law of Attraction and prayer....more later.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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