Judgment

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domokato
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Judgment

Post by domokato » Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:18 am

Many spiritual teachers have spoken against judgment, saying it hinders awakening. But isn't that a judgment in itself? If not, then what is considered a judgment and what is not? If I say "Bill is tall," is that a judgment? Are judgments an unavoidable part of conversation?

Are these statements judgments?:

"Buying expensive things is egoic"
"Civilization keeps people unconscious"
"The mind is insane"
"The ego doesn't want you to awaken"
"My painbody is strong"

I can see how making any judgment can hinder your awakening. But I can't see how we can avoid them or even talk about awakening without them. So where is the line drawn? Or is there a deeper truth I have yet to see?
~housecat

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Re: Judgment

Post by Webwanderer » Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:43 am

domakato wrote:Many spiritual teachers have spoken against judgment, saying it hinders awakening. But isn't that a judgment in itself? If not, then what is considered a judgment and what is not? If I say "Bill is tall," is that a judgment? Are judgments an unavoidable part of conversation?
There are qualitative judgments and there are value judgments. The judgments that spiritual teachers caustion against are those that create a sense of resistance within us. Not to like the soup because is is too salty is not a value judgment, but a qualitative one. To consider the cook a jerk for screwing up your dinner is a value judgment.

In reviewing the nature of your judgments consider how you feel in making them. Do you feel a sense of separation from the object of your attention, or does a sense of harmony persist? Right and wrong are value judgments. Sweet and sour are qualitative.

"Buying expensive things is egoic"

Maybe, but is that an observation or an indictment? The same may be said for your other inquiries as well.

WW

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domokato
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Re: Judgment

Post by domokato » Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:53 am

I see. So "Jason is Asian" is a qualitative judgment. But, I wonder if spiritual teachers mean to caution against these kind of statements, too, since Jason "being Asian" causes people to unconsciously stereotype him in certain ways.

"Buying expensive things is egoic" is also a qualitative judgment, then. However, if I were to say this, would this be a belief? I remember Eckhart cautions against having beliefs too. By labeling something I limit it. So by believing that buying expensive things is egoic, am I just limiting myself (to buying cheap things)?

Okay...I tried, but I'm too tired to offer anything more right now :)
~housecat

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Re: Judgment

Post by Webwanderer » Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:28 pm

domokato wrote:I see. So "Jason is Asian" is a qualitative judgment. But, I wonder if spiritual teachers mean to caution against these kind of statements, too, since Jason "being Asian" causes people to unconsciously stereotype him in certain ways.
Recognizing a person is wearing a red shirt is just an observation unless there is an underlying attachement that red shirts say something unrelated about the wearer. Unconscious attachments to beliefs are common. Be vigilant to your feelings, they will guide you to these hidden concepts.

domokato wrote:"Buying expensive things is egoic" is also a qualitative judgment, then. However, if I were to say this, would this be a belief? I remember Eckhart cautions against having beliefs too. By labeling something I limit it. So by believing that buying expensive things is egoic, am I just limiting myself
(to buying cheap things)?
Buying cheap things can be just as egoic. If one thinks buying cheap things makes them special in some way, that too can be a concept that creates a sense of separateness.

Eckhart caustions against having beliefs because they create a sense of reality in which ego may thrive. Without such belief structures awareness is free to live in oneness.

WW

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Re: Judgment

Post by Sighclone » Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:49 am

If I say "Bill is tall," is that a judgment? Are judgments an unavoidable part of conversation?
"Bill is tall" is a fact. "Tall people are good leaders" is a judgement. "dk is Asian" is a fact. "Asians are intelligent" is a judgement. Yes, many people leap from a fact to a judgement quickly. And many people have conditioning which encourages that leap.

But, in fact, the judgement is a choice. The observation of the fact is not a choice. It is simply true. The weight we put on facts and judgements is our decision. We may have reflex judgements which need examining, or ignoring :) .

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Judgment

Post by Onceler » Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:51 pm

I believe you should question both judgements and facts. I am doing so and what is left is softer, more pliant.
Be present, be pleasant.

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Re: Judgment

Post by domokato » Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:39 pm

WW,

So saying that "buying expensive things is egoic" is a belief and does limit awareness. I suppose, then, that whether or not something is egoic is more of a personal recognition than a judgment, and saying that "buying expensive things is egoic" for everyone all the time would be a limiting belief (like a moral judgment). I think I understand.

Sighclone,

Thanks. That clears things up pretty well :)

Onceler,

Yes, there are no real, 100% true facts. The only thing we know for sure is "I am". Everything else is uncertain :). It really is humbling, you're right. What remains are possibilities and thoughts, instead of expectations and beliefs.
~housecat

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Re: Judgment

Post by ubuntu » Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:54 pm

Hi, I think judgements are based on what you think is good or bad, If you think Asians are bad and say " Fred is an Asian" you may be using that as a judgement to say Fred is bad. Judgement , good or bad is always comdemnation.
There is only one thing I am certain of, I exist and I exist NOW.

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Re: Judgment

Post by tod » Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:24 pm

Isn't judgment any sort of mind-action - the positing of an unsplit, and the splitting, or further splitting, of this?

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Re: Judgment

Post by kaminoishiki » Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:51 am

Well, since reality is undivided, any judgement pertaining to a subject/object relationship is false.


"Buying expensive things is egoic"
"Civilization keeps people unconscious"
"The mind is insane"
"The ego doesn't want you to awaken"
"My painbody is strong"

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Re: Judgment

Post by Webwanderer » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:46 am

domokato wrote: WW,

So saying that "buying expensive things is egoic" is a belief and does limit awareness.
It depends of whether that statement is just an observation, or whether it holds an underlying judgment. If it's painted with too broad a brush, it seems inherently judgmental, and can indeed be limiting. But if it's specific to a fairly observed quality, and if it's recognized that there is nothing "wrong" with being egoic, maybe not.

WW

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Re: Judgment

Post by domokato » Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:16 pm

WW,

You make a distinction between observations and judgments. If every time I see someone buy something expensive I also see that their ego is behind the purchase, I may conclude that "buying expensive things is egoic". This is an observation in that it is consistent with what I have observed. But it is also a judgment because I am generalizing it to apply to everyone everywhere. I am taking an observation and assuming the converse. The ego drives people to buy expensive things, therefore buying expensive things is egoic. But there is a flaw in this logic - just because the ego drives people to buy expensive things doesn't mean that every time an expensive thing is bought it is because of the ego. Is it possible an expensive thing can be bought without ego? One might say, "I don't know. I haven't seen it, so I assume not." And yet isn't this assumption is also a judgment? - a belief about what is and isn't? - based on form-evidence we know is never 100% solid?

I think tod and kaminoishiki are right. Everything we say about anything is a judgment, even about ego and awakening and consciousness. Yet teachers like Eckhart and others use such judgments regularly. I don't think it's possible to converse and hold concepts without judging first. I think it's a so-called necessary evil. Maybe we should create new, non-judgmental words to use :)
~housecat

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Re: Judgment

Post by weopposedeception » Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:42 am

I think all thought is based on conditioning and therefore is a form of judgement. When thoughts appear, I find it useful to realize that no thought can contain the entire truth about any situation, although it might contain a partial truth.

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Re: Judgment

Post by Sighclone » Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:39 am

As I recall Eckhart, his opposition to judging in mainly in the area of absolutes. He discourages us from judging that an event is absolutely right or wrong, good or bad. PON is full of judgment. He constantly judges that his questioners have midunderstood him or interpeted him incorrectly, then goes on to correct their interpretations of his statements. He judged that the soup was cold, recalled that he preferred it warm and asked for a correction. I believe he judged that 200 million deaths in 100 years was bad, however. So he got to work writing and speaking. He does mention, though, that Source could create another earth, another human race...

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Judgment

Post by Onceler » Sun Dec 14, 2008 4:00 pm

I think the most profound statement Jesus made was; "Judge not and you shall not be judged".

I have made this my mantra for my "Christian" chuch-going identity and it is very servicable and true to that experience.
Be present, be pleasant.

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