"Marijuana and False Enlightenment"

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wander
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"Marijuana and False Enlightenment"

Post by wander » Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:51 am

Alright, so i stole the post title from this blog post.. http://rickhur.blogspot.com/2007/12/mar ... nment.html It is very fitting and describes my experiences very well. (i will quote some passages that are the most relevant if you dont read the link)
"Pot gave me the effect of enlightenment and realization. My thoughts would become crystal clear, extremely vivid and would reveal to me profoundly "spiritual" things. I could see into people with profound clarity and could psycho-analyze them with great precision."
This is exactly what marijuana does to me (usually).
Anyway, he goes on to say that :
"The high for me mimicked realization and insight so closely that it had me unable to see the evil spirit behind all this for a very long time.The spirit behind this drug knew that I was born with a proclivity toward truth, had strong perception and it played up on this by revealing to me profound things, showing me true things, keeping me coming back for more. But what IT never revealed to me was that ALL of this was taking place from within my thought world, from within my ego universe where I saw myself as enlightened and certain that what I was seeing was true, because it was."

I would say this is quite true. However i still smoke weed from time to time and really havent gotten started with meditation ( thougth it will be my #1 new years resolution!). But what i am wondering is with meditation will i likely come to the same realizations that i get from smoking marijuana? These thoughts i get when i am high make me feel much better about my life becuase when i feel that onenness and wisdom and so on i dont really have any other concern. Has anyone had the smae experiences with marijuana and then whet on to meditate? And how were the meditation experiences similar? How were they different? Thanks

the key master
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Re: "Marijuana and False Enlightenment"

Post by the key master » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:47 am

Haha what a great post. I didn't scope the blog you posted, but here's my 2 cents...

Weed certainly can (in my experience) enable the individual to forget the "problems" which typically plague the mind. The mind thus can be allowed a certain freedom of exploration. That said, I can't say I've had any, and I mean any at all, spiritual insights into Reality while high. Typically my mind tends to be more restless when I smoke weed than not. But at the same time, a greater willingness to explore atypical thoughts, unorthodox thoughts, exists when smoking marijuana. So, I do feel weed actually has made it easier to free the mind.

I once suffered from quite severe depression. I could smoke a half ounce of the sickest weed around in a week. I still smoke with my friends every now and then, but at this point, I find no benefits, spiritually speaking. Weed may make it easier to accept what is(in the short term), but it can also have the opposite effect on many. I meditate practically every day, and I find the benefits of meditation are far more lasting and transformative than any short term euphoria from weed.

-Jason

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Re: "Marijuana and False Enlightenment"

Post by Glycine » Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:56 pm

You're getting me started again with "Awareness vs. Brain".
Marijuana has different effects on different people.
Some of its effects include scrambling intercellular signaling in the brain.
Smoking will never take you beyond mind/brain. Most of what you get is based on various illusions.

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Re: "Marijuana and False Enlightenment"

Post by Webwanderer » Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:23 pm

wander wrote:i am wondering is with meditation will i likely come to the same realizations that i get from smoking marijuana? These thoughts i get when i am high make me feel much better about my life becuase when i feel that onenness and wisdom and so on i dont really have any other concern. Has anyone had the smae experiences with marijuana and then whet on to meditate?
In meditation, especially 'True Medititation", as defined by Adyashanti, realizations are the result of cognition in the absence of thought. It is more of a clarity of perception than knowledge developed through analytical processes.

Marijuana revolations tend to be spontaneous thoughts and concepts amid active mind clutter. Once the marijuana enlightenment wares off a look at such "profound" genius generally brings thoughts of amused curiousity. What the hell was I thinking????

But realizations born of the silent presence and clear awareness of true meditation transcends mental review and is more likely to transform much or one's thinking process. Others finding their own clarity through meditation generally come to similar understandings as those who came before them.

Those who discover their own true nature through True Meditation usually lose all interest in the muddy state experience through marijuana. It just doesn't compare to (an usually gets in the way of) the beautiful clarity that is known in simple presence awareness.

WW

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Re: "Marijuana and False Enlightenment"

Post by James » Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:09 pm

False enlightenment is a good word for it. But we needn't judge it good or bad. It seems we are here because we have lessons to learn about our true nature, we are experiencing a sense of reality in a world of matter and form. We learn that what we perceive with the senses is not in fact reality, but a projection or reflection of it. Substances that alter the senses may provide an initial glimpse that matter is not really solid, stable, separate. It may even give a temporary glimpse of unity and oneness with life. Carlos Casteneda explored this in his writings through his experiences with native shamans and their use of substances to alter reality, and enter mystical experiences. The classic film Altered States, also is very good. It is about the the fictional story of a scientist that searches for the origin and meaning of life, through self experimentation with substances and inner journeys.

Yet as all things in the world of form and duality, it has drawbacks, repercussions and risks. Pleasant experiences can become unpleasant experiences, and we learn that all experiences are temporary and subject to change. As WW mentioned, once a person discovers their true nature they probably will lose interest in altering their sense of reality with substances.

J.
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

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Re: "Marijuana and False Enlightenment"

Post by Glycine » Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:42 pm

I found the movie "Altered States" - Thank you for the suggestion, James. I'll try to watch it soon.
The truth is that the brain itself can produce a wide array of hallucinogenic molecules.
Some people may argue that such trance-inducing molecules are secreted during meditation and even more so during OOBE or NDE.
As James mentioned in another post, you end up chasing your own tail quite a lot when you start analyzing these issues. But then again, maybe someone should go ahead and do it!!!

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Re: "Marijuana and False Enlightenment"

Post by kiki » Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:20 pm

I just have to compliment Webwanderer and James on their posts - what a gift they are to this community.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
---

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Re: "Marijuana and False Enlightenment"

Post by James » Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:35 pm

Thank you Kiki, and thank you Glycine for your further pondering, you said:
the brain itself can produce a wide array of hallucinogenic molecules.
Some people may argue that such trance-inducing molecules are secreted during meditation and even more so during OOBE or NDE.
Ok, we can say there are molecules, but that does not really reveal the mystery. We can find that molecules consist of atoms, and atoms according to physics are something like 99.999999999 % empty space. So then what is the source of these atoms, what created them? And what is the intelligence that arranges them and orders them to produce the appearance of molecules, chemicals, matter and experiences? What is the essence and origin of a seemingly infinite universe? What makes life possible?.... Eventually science runs out of explanations. Try not answering those questions literally with analysis and explanations, but rather take them into the stillness and let truth be revealed from within. "Ask and ye shall receive" (clarity), knock and the door to understanding will open. Keep knocking if necessary, humbly admit that you don't know, (sometimes referred to as surrender).

J.
Last edited by James on Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

the key master
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Re: "Marijuana and False Enlightenment"

Post by the key master » Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:05 pm

WW said,
It just doesn't compare to (an usually gets in the way of) the beautiful clarity that is known in simple presence awareness.
Absolutely. I must say, if I go see Batman on the big screen, I'm probably going high haha. All kidding aside though, using any drug to explore Self can get hairy. I have good friends who use LSD regularly. I can have great conversations with them regarding nonduality. They're extremely in touch. Yet their egoic tendencies are seemingly even more pronounced(I might even use the word insane). Its kind of sad...

James
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Re: "Marijuana and False Enlightenment"

Post by James » Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:22 pm

Note to Glycine: Another way to define ego is "I already know". That is the hallmark of mankind's egotism.

Interesting how we come to believe that spiritual awakening is about having all the answers, a subtle way that the ego co-opts awakening; when in reality the closer we come to admitting we don't know, the more awake we are. One of those mysterious paradoxes. :wink:

J.
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

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Re: "Marijuana and False Enlightenment"

Post by Glycine » Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:13 pm

"To attain knowledge, add things every day. To attain wisdom, remove things every day."
--Lao Tzu

I'm looking for wisdom, but I'm afraid I'll end up as a tree. The truth is that I used to feel comfortable looking for knowledge (research).
Now, I would like to find wisdom using knowledge - which seems to be impossible! Maybe some of us were never meant to wake up. Maybe the trick is to stop looking!
Last edited by Glycine on Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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domokato
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Re: "Marijuana and False Enlightenment"

Post by domokato » Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:19 pm

wander,

Yes, that has been my experience with marijuana as well. But marijuana has made me feel very different over the course of time I've been smoking it. Sometimes euphoric. Sometimes silly. Sometimes depressed. Sometimes paranoid. Sometimes enlightened. Sometimes psychic. Usually in phases on the order of months/years. And most of the epiphanies I had while stoned didn't make any sense in the end, although some have been relatively profound (as profound as mind-stuff can be). Usually for me, ideas for creative projects come flowing in like water while I'm stoned, and while they are pretty amazing in my mind, they are also mostly completely impractical to execute, lol. I used to get caught up in fantasy worlds involving a science fiction future or being a rock star or theories about how the world works, while stoned. And sometimes I play video games much better while stoned (since weed seems to be a mind-amplifier of sorts).

I still get stoned occasionally these days, although the drive is definitely decreasing. I just don't see much point in it anymore. It usually just makes me a little anxious and dehydrated, albeit a bit euphoric, and then dehydrated afterward. Being sober and present is much more enjoyable, especially when interacting with others. And I can get even better creative ideas (more practical ones) through presence. :)

If by meditation you mean open-eye meditation or constant meditation, aka presence, then I would say the only overlap with marijuana is that marijuana also has the power to completely shut off the mind. I remember the first few times I smoked this is exactly what happened. The mind shut off, my problems went away, and I enjoyed the world as if I was seeing it for the first time. Everything was beautiful and amazing. Sometimes this still happens when I get stoned. I look at trees and I see fractals everywhere. In fact, I see fractals in many things, including mankind's creations, and technology itself. I think it could be used as a crutch for a newbie awakener by allowing them to shut off their mind for a while and enjoy the physical world like a child again. I think practicing awareness techniques while stoned is the way to achieve this. I used it as an awakening crutch for a little time, and I think it really sped up the process, but now I think it's about time to drop it since it's no longer needed and is probably just a hindrance at this point. :)
~housecat

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Re: "Marijuana and False Enlightenment"

Post by James » Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:55 pm

Glycine said:
Maybe some of us were never meant to wake up.
Awakening is inevitable for all, but we can delay its inevitability, that is about the only meaningful choice we have. It is expectancy of what it should be like, how quickly it will happen, that trips us up. We are stuck in time bound awareness. Have you read Power of Now? If so I would recommend rereading it slowly, or listen to the audio version as a meditation on a daily basis, and stay with the principles consistently. Then do the same thing with Stillness Speaks, also ET's Gateways To Now recording is excellent. And don't be in a hurry, there is nothing to get and no place else to be other than here and now. Awakening is "Now or never".
Maybe the trick is to stop looking!
Yes, try that, enter the Now and stop looking, let go, surrender. Try that for a while if that is what seems right for you, follow your intuition rather than your mind, and then let us know how that goes. :D

J.
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

wander
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Re: "Marijuana and False Enlightenment"

Post by wander » Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:02 pm

Well i must say i am impressed with all of the replies. And webwanderer got it exactly right: "Once the marijuana enlightenment wares off a look at such "profound" genius generally brings thoughts of amused curiousity. What the hell was I thinking????" Of course it also brings about dissapointment. As I had gotten my hopes up that i had discovered something. However i often also feel like a lot of the thoughts really are profound its just that being sober my mind can no longer grasp them and see the truth. Of course i dont know. But one of the things that i like about marijuana (and really i dont like marijuna for any reason other than the "profound insights" i achieve) is that when i have those insights my concerns go away. I dont really feel that it has anything to do with being euphoric because without the "insights" i can still get depressed when high. But rather that the realizations that i have make worrying about "problems" seem so silly. Or better yet there dont seem to be any problems!! Something that i believe Tolle has discussed- There are no problems, never were never will be- right? I always feel the marijuana is giving me a glimpse of truth becuase i am able to make more sense of the spiritual stuff i read.

And domokoto i was refering to a practice of sitting meditation as i feel i would greatly benefit from that practice right now. And so you say you somewhat have the same experiences thought presence that you have with weed? BUt you do not practice a closed eye sitting meditation?

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Re: "Marijuana and False Enlightenment"

Post by domokato » Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:29 pm

No, I don't practice closed-eye sitting meditation. Maybe in bed before falling asleep, but I just call that being mindless and present. But I'm not sitting; I'm just lying down. Yes, weed provides an altered state of consciousness in which it seems habits are more easily changed by will alone. I suppose this could be related to the open-mindedness that comes with getting stoned. I really have no idea how it all works. Sometimes getting stoned makes my mind incredibly active. Other times not so much. And right before reading The Power of Now for the first time, I discovered that I can control the amount of mind activity while stoned, which really helped :)
~housecat

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