Not all animals are continuously living in the present!

This is the place to post whatever questions you have related to the teachings of Eckhart Tolle. The rest of us will do whatever we can to help you achieve a better understanding :)
Mushinsan
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Re: Not all animals are continuously living in the present!

Post by Mushinsan » Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:11 pm

Yes ET is very insightful and amazingly apt at point directly to the truth. But the one thing he mentions over and over is the gap the (what I call "isness") of the universe. The space in which all things occur, whether outside this body or inside. If there is how many times more space than things, then space must be where to find any real version of reality. So, it can't be any thing, ever. Just space, so if you investigate space with every tool you can, you can't find it. But, the minute you quit looking there it is. Now, the choice we make is "Do I enter that gate of no-thing?" or not. To Be or not to Be. It's scary, dont get me wrong, the mind will fight like the devil, try to get you to believe any thing, any THING, because if thats what you identify with, then the world of things has control and your mind and the environment push you around. Or you balance yourself "on the razor's edge" and keep aware of your "isness" and proceed through life no longer creating stories in the head but being right here, right now every step of the way. Its like surfing on the current of life, instead of struggling against it.


Everyone of you are supreme beings, look for yourselves.

innerhike
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Re: Not all animals are continuously living in the present!

Post by innerhike » Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:49 pm

We can and must use everything that bothers us to wake up.

What interests Glycine may not interest others, but Glycine must use these means to wake up.

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Are animals living in the present?

Ramana Maharshi on many occassions when presented with a question like this would say: who is asking, the animal, or you?

Then he would say: who are you?

---

Ramana Maharshi himself had a unique relationship with animals.

On his ashram grounds there are tombs of two saints: himself and his mother.

But there are multiple tombs of various animals who he recognized to be of very high consciousness, or completely liberated.

This includes a crow, a dog, a cow.

---

Throughout his life Ramana was seen having deep, meaningful interactions with animals of various species. He would mediate fights between monkeys. Peacocks, tigers, squirrels, all kinds of wild and domesticated animals from around Arunachala mountain would show up in his presence.

Beings who emnate a deep peace are deeply attractive to all beings, especially animals.

No language is necessary to communicate the felt vibration of peace.

---

It does not matter whether animals are living in the present.

What matters is that this is a metaphor for something deeper.

Animals do not hoard or kill endlessly. It is a need-based existence.

Do animals have complex algorithms for ensuring financial well-being into the future?

Do they have to have a police force?

Do they wake up in the morning and say I don't feel like going to work today?

Why or how do they work so well in harmony with the rhythm of life and nature?

I don't know the answers to these questions.

But I do know that simplicity and clarity of nature and animals is a great metaphor for dropping resistance and letting things be.

James
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Re: Not all animals are continuously living in the present!

Post by James » Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:56 pm

Innerhike said:
What interests Glycine may not interest others, but Glycine must use these means to wake up.
Good point, follow the rabbit through the hole Glycine, and see where it leads you. :wink:

J.

Mushinsan
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Re: Not all animals are continuously living in the present!

Post by Mushinsan » Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:01 pm

Yes it is a good point, however, why not just skip it altogether and ask "Why does this interest me now more than my state of being?" Realize its the mind banging at the back door, and go on his merry way.

Glycine
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Re: Not all animals are continuously living in the present!

Post by Glycine » Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:59 am

Thank you all!
Of course animals are not like humans, but many do have a complex social life. I feel tempted to talk about it, starting with ants and bees (that even have some sort of police force in the hive). Many species are invasive, and would "take over the world" if there weren't other species to "fight" them. Humans somehow managed to generally escape most natural predators.
Also, many animals suffer from depression - especially pets and caged animals in the zoo; - they don't enjoy the present moment anymore, but instead wish they were somewhere else ("home").
Nevertheless, as Innerhike said, the stillness of nature is a good metaphor.
However, I do realize that these questions just keep my mind busy. Even so, I may go down the chipmunk hole at some point - and I'll let you know what I find!

Glycine
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Re: Not all animals are continuously living in the present!

Post by Glycine » Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:19 am

Here's a clear example showing that monkeys have ego:
Frans de Waal of the Yerkes National Primate Research Center in Atlanta noted that monkeys were perfectly happy to work for cucumber slices until a person started giving one monkey a preferred treat like grapes. Then the others stopped working for cucumbers and started nursing a grudge. “The underlying emotion is likely envy or resentment,” Dr. de Waal said.

James
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Re: Not all animals are continuously living in the present!

Post by James » Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:50 am

I think the next step, dear Glycine, is to send a copy of Eckhart's book to the researchers, and see if they can translate it into monkey sign language, so those monkeys can learn to live more fully in the moment, free of envy.

Though I really can't blame them for preferring grapes over cucumbers, this monkey mind does.

james

Glycine
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Re: Not all animals are continuously living in the present!

Post by Glycine » Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:18 am

That's a great idea, James!
Maybe those who envy Eckhart for having a lot of money can write some books for teaching pets to be happy with whatever the present brings - I guess this would be a largely unexplored market! :lol:

Some humans appear to be so proud that they consider themselves (as a species) to be the inventors of thinking and ego. Humans are just a different expression of the same life.
However, due to a sense of separation, each species and each individual feel like they have more problems than others.
To me, saying that animals have no ego is the same as saying that the neighbor's lawn is greener.

James
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Re: Not all animals are continuously living in the present!

Post by James » Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:55 pm

Glycine wrote
Some humans appear to be so proud that they consider themselves (as a species) to be the inventors of thinking and ego.
Yes, animals should have every opportunity to be egoic, envious and resentful, just like humans. :lol:

Humans actually have a lot in common with monkeys, we are both in the primate family, and our minds are often chattering, jumping from limb to limb. (AKA the "monkey mind")

Glycine you have heard the questions, "if a tree falls in the woods and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?" " Does the observer influence the observed? Is it a particle or a wave?

Well if a monkey wants a grape and there is no human there to observe it and label it, is it really "envy"? :?
Something else to ponder, my friend.

james
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

Glycine
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Re: Not all animals are continuously living in the present!

Post by Glycine » Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:08 pm

Thank you for your insightful answer, James. :)
James wrote:Well if a monkey wants a grape and there is no human there to observe it and label it, is it really "envy"?
Well, if a human is behaving egoically and there is no one else there to observe it, does the human still have an ego?

James
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Re: Not all animals are continuously living in the present!

Post by James » Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:49 pm

Well, if a human is behaving egoically and there is no one else there to observe it, does the human still have an ego?
What would it be like if we removed all names and labels? Then how would life appear? Try that on for a bit.

james


"naming is the origin of all particular things"
Tao Te Ching

Glycine
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Re: Not all animals are continuously living in the present!

Post by Glycine » Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:59 pm

What would it be like if we removed all names and labels? Then how would life appear? Try that on for a bit.
Well, when I do that.... I somehow vanish! But life appears fresh and interesting. Nevertheless, various thoughts find a way to sneak back.

James
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Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:06 pm

Re: Not all animals are continuously living in the present!

Post by James » Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:16 pm

Well, when I do that.... I somehow vanish! But life appears fresh and interesting.
Beautiful, that's it! Life undivided.
Nevertheless, various thoughts find a way to sneak back.
Let the thoughts sneak back in, they are just thoughts, no one has ever succeeded in stopping thoughts. To push them away is to energize them and give them reality and power. Don't name or label the thoughts. Observe them with relaxed detachment, or amusement, without believing them. If one hooks you, try inquiring into its validity, until it dissipates or loses its energy.

james
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

Glycine
Posts: 290
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:42 pm

Re: Not all animals are continuously living in the present!

Post by Glycine » Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:06 pm

Thank you, James.
I appears to me that we may have a purpose on Earth, and the thoughts that keep appearing are part of our "task". Nevertheless, it is almost "magical" to be able to separate the sense of being alive from the thoughts about "little me". It is wonderful to look around with joy and not want anything for "yourself", but also know that it's already "yours".

thenow
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Re: Not all animals are continuously living in the present!

Post by thenow » Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:32 pm

I think this is an interesting question. I often wonder whether or not my cat lose sleep because of something that he is not happy about, such as "Why was today's food so bad?" "Why didn't I see any birds flying by today?" " Tomorrow I have to go to next door and scratch that other damn cat. He looked really annoying yesterday."

Also, when the cat react to anything in the environment in the moment, is that the type of "in the moment" we meditate on?

If someone scratch at him, he scratch him right back. A scratch for a scratch. A meow for a meow.

Young children do the same thing. If someone take his toy away, he protests loudly or even hits. Is the innocence in young children closer to universal consciousness? When we are slap on the face for no reason, are we more inclined to slap back, going with our universal consciousness?

I think one thing very interesting is :

1)is human nature or animal nature at its most innocent state, equal to universal consciousness?

2)Can universal consciousness be menifested only when there is no individual agenda, other than universal agenda?

3) Is natural selection on the agenda of universal consciousness? ( Isn't this how the foos chain works, without which, there will be too many rabbits, if there is no eagles hunting them to balance the whole system.)

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