Maybe enlightenment is a form of psychosis

This is the place to post whatever questions you have related to the teachings of Eckhart Tolle. The rest of us will do whatever we can to help you achieve a better understanding :)
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mccpcorn
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Post by mccpcorn » Fri May 12, 2006 11:16 am

lucy, I've tried to streamline my words to give a compact context, I hope it helps give you a better understanding.

At the end of the day, we are already indoctrinated through language, culture, religion, politics, standard of living, education etc.

All Tolle does is offer a fresh perspective, a way to see through the doctrine and see the value of life.

No-one is asking you to give up anything; Tolle himself has a very different context in using the word 'surrender' and he agrees we still need the mind and clock time to function in the day to day modern world.

All he is asking you to consider is the possibility of putting the mind and clock time to one side when not in use.

You're not making 'time' for your 'self', but rather making SPACE for your 'self', if you understand me.

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Post by kiki » Fri May 12, 2006 6:34 pm

Phil wrote:Including this belief?

Wow. Now forums, books, tapes, seminars, all flooded to the rooftops with an overflowing tsunami tidal wave of beliefs, thoughts, conclusions, positions. A wide river of raging thought, posing as the end of thought.

Honestly, the traditional religions are actually simpler than we are because they just have beliefs. Period.

They say, "Here are our beliefs: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. We believe this stuff and that is our religion. End of story."

If only we could be that plain about it.
Yes, including this belief. The dropping of it comes when there is the seeing of the insubstantiality of the one who would hold any belief.

Religion does make it seem simple - just believe this, that, and the other and all will be fine and dandy, but is that the reality when those beliefs are clung to? Following the beliefs of any religion or philosophy leaves in place the one who would entertain and maintain any belief. Religion keeps in place the unchallenged assumption that "I" as a separate entity exist. The discovery of what lies beneath the "I" does not depend upon belief, but in fact, leaves every belief behind. This has to be seen for yourself, otherwise it just remains a belief. Then you will see how utterly simple you really are and how entangled within the mind everything else is, vis a vis religion, philosophy, and all belief systems. You ARE simplicity, every belief strays away from realizing that simplicity.

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Post by phil » Fri May 12, 2006 8:04 pm

kiki wrote: Religion keeps in place the unchallenged assumption that "I" as a separate entity exist. This has to be seen for yourself,
For myself? Who would that be?

I don't exist. But I have to see that for myself. Hmm.

Are we going to wallpaper over this collision with words like "semantics" and "paradox" so that this subject will remain an exciting baffling mystery that only the special people understand?

Or can we be simple and plain, and just make up our minds, do we exist or not?

If we don't exist, great, nothing to do. If we do exist, great, let's see how we might alter our existence for the better.

Hmm, every religion I've ever heard of says that their beliefs represent the truth, once you really see the light.

It seems our community is trying to be special, different, and especially above, everybody else.

It's not enough that we are right and they are wrong. That's not special enough.

We have to also claim that our perspective is not a perspective, our thoughts are not thoughts, our beliefs are not beliefs, that we don't actually exist, and that's why we are awakened.

Well, this desire to go the extra mile to be more special than others, does make us ordinary I guess.

Far from plain and simple, but ordinary.

That seems like an opening to me. All of us, every religion, bumbling around in the dark, without a clue. All of us lost together, united in ignorance, completely outmatched by the enormity of where we find ourselves.

That could possibly lead to us all being one, united in silence.

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Post by heidi » Fri May 12, 2006 8:12 pm

That seems like an opening to me. All of us, every religion, bumbling around in the dark, without a clue. All of us lost together, united in ignorance, completely outmatched by the enormity of where we find ourselves.
I'm bumbling - bumblybeeing - around in the light! Don't you think that a big part of acceptance is accepting that you don't know? All I do know is the thing that we all share is that isness or noneness (which to me can only be described as the love of creation) that everyone seems to want to nitpick about. :) :?
That could possibly lead to us all being one, united in silence.
You might have something there, Phil. :)
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Post by mccpcorn » Fri May 12, 2006 9:34 pm

Actually phil, I personally feel Tolle's work has helped me connect to my religion of birth again (Roman Catholic).

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Post by heidi » Fri May 12, 2006 10:19 pm

For myself? Who would that be?
I think that's the self that has to eat breakfast and catch the bus. :lol:
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Post by lucy » Sat May 13, 2006 2:23 am

Heidi,Phil,Larryfoot, MC, and Kiki

Thanks for your responses.

Kiki, you mentioned direct experience. I know that I exist, I know that I am not my thoughts, these are experiences that I can say I have direct experience of, but from there, how do I get the direct experience of realizing that we are all one and that there is only one consciousness. Even though I have direct experience of the "witness" I still don't see how the "awakened" make the leap from that to realizing that we are all That?

Will staying in the present help me realize this directly? What helped you connect the dots?

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Post by Egoicmidget » Sat May 13, 2006 5:10 am

I think thought and awareness can coexist in total harmony under the following conditions.
When the self realizes thought as formations of energy in the mind and respects and doesn't make a self out of that energy thought is useful.
Accepting all our complex facets seems, in my view important.
Abiding in the space that you are provides lots of room for the ego, and it is witnessed as that. The personality, personna, all the thoughts and concepts of what you consist of is worth contemplating. Inquiry is important, when we see what we are not it is apparent to me what is left is the witness.

I think there is abundant room for every aspect of your being including thoughts.
My postition is that awareness is the wellspring of life and thought acts as
energy and at times provides useful feedback but then dissapates back into the source.
The ultimate truth to me is there is just this.
Awareness.
When I choose my refernce point to be thought I quickly create problems
and trouble insues because thought tends to create and identity because of past conditioning.
When I watch thought I see it for what it is, energy.
Having learned that some time ago my place of abiding is awareness, for me that is the house were I live and I feel very safe and comfortable there.

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Post by lucy » Sat May 13, 2006 6:22 am

hi Egomidget,

thanks for your input. This "abiding in awareness" which you speak of, has it deepened to a point where you see everything as one, and if so, how do you know it is not just a belief or a concept?

I can directly experience the witness. I now know what I am not, but I don't see this connectedness that everyone seems to talk about once they have had the direct realiztion of who they are.

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Post by Larryfroot » Sat May 13, 2006 10:53 am

Hallo Lucy and all who read this!
How do you join the dots?
- to quote you Lucy.

ET uses a phrase
...a felt oneness with being
If we may for the sake of the point use the term 'felt' as the operative term in that statement.

When my shell cracked, when I stepped out of the wreckage I knew what I wasn't. But somehow I thought (in this particular case - duh!) that I should feel myself in certain way - as if now I had stopped imputing self upon non self, that I should experience self as a cosmic sparkly event of oneness...

But of course I was simply trying to createt yet another construct of 'self' which mercifully failed. A construct that tried to take on board enlightenment - but a construct nonetheless.

And then I let go of the idea that I should be this or that or the other,even enlightened. Actually, I haven't found any self that is enlightened. In fact I have found no self at all, not even an enlightened one.

Which is odd is it not? :D

The "....felt oneness with being" is a slow (for me) unfolding of depth after the initial sudden and unexpected cracking of my shell. (Only one way of many into the now).

It just gets deeper and deeper. Not on an intellectual level, but on a heart level. perhaps it will take me into enlightenment, perhaps not. It has got to the point where it doesn't even matter. There is only this inner freedom of that sacred gap of no-self (on a good day, that is! :wink: :) ).

So for me, enlightenment has been a bit of a red herring, as I was trying to manifest an enlightened self. Silly bean Larryfroot! Simply by accepting and enjoying the beauty inside I find myself as pure awareness, and that felt oneness gradually grows.

I hope this has been of some use. Larryfroot. :)
Many a mickle muches a markle.

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Post by Egoicmidget » Sat May 13, 2006 1:55 pm

thanks for your input. This "abiding in awareness" which you speak of, has it deepened to a point where you see everything as one, and if so, how do you know it is not just a belief or a concept?
In my own life at this point I have a foot in both worlds.
I have moments of clarity but life situtations do at times still create identification with feelings and thoughts. The old conditioning doesn't magically disapear unfortunatley. The now really is the key as reality isn't percieved through the past or future thus the perceptual lenses of your life unfolding remain clear of those distortions. Those mind structures, to me, cause all the illusions of illness and add to the story, that story is the source of the problem.
I find when I allow and not try to abide in awareness life unfolds in a very serene and natural way. The energy of trying comes from the insatiable desire for more which of course is ego.
I have even caught myself wanting more books on spirituality.
Thinking of getting there sooner or gathering more insights, all illusion of course.
I tend to observe thought and feelings most of the time, for me it's been a gradual shift because I was in the "trying" mode for quit awhile untill I realized none of the teachings were about trying or about thought for that matter. I needed to surrender to what is and when I get in trouble it's frquently because I battle how life is unfolding.
That was and at times still is my greatest hurdle.
When the story of me is dropped it's evident in my body that it isn't a belief or concept because both are witnessed by my awareness as energies. I remember what has always been, everpresent timeless joy springing from the field of the eternal.
Awareness clearly understands that thought comes and goes.
There is unity when that understanding is felt in your being.

John

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Post by Larryfroot » Sat May 13, 2006 4:29 pm

egoicmidget wrote:
I find when I allow and not try to abide in awareness life unfolds in a very serene and natural way.
Yeppity yep yep.

One accepts freedom. Trying to be free is another entanglement.

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Post by summer » Sat May 13, 2006 4:36 pm

Yep. This habit of "trying" is so deeply engrained isn't it? I am beginning to equate "trying" with what Eckhart calls resistance.

Awareness is effortless. No effort at all. Can I notice what is effortless in this moment?

When I am immersed in this effortless zone, it becomes apparent that it the same ocean that we all swim in. The same pure awareness is operating in all of us. This is where Oneness is known.

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Post by kiki » Sat May 13, 2006 9:59 pm

Phil wrote:It seems our community is trying to be special, different, and especially above, everybody else.

It's not enough that we are right and they are wrong. That's not special enough.
That's strange, I don't get that sense at all. Is there anyone here who is seeking to be "special, different, above everbody else"? I just don't see that. I see a community that is looking for "something", and that "something" may be viewed by others as special and different.
Phil wrote:We have to also claim that our perspective is not a perspective, our thoughts are not thoughts, our beliefs are not beliefs, that we don't actually exist, and that's why we are awakened.
When you are resting in your natural state, where are beliefs? Are they anywhere at all? When you are resting in your natural state, where is "my" perspective, where are thoughts? How can this nonconceptual natural state of awareness be conveyed in a way which will be satisfactory to the mind?
Phil wrote:Well, this desire to go the extra mile to be more special than others, does make us ordinary I guess.
I don't sense that anyone here is trying to be "more special" than anyone else. I sense that people here are looking for peace, looking for contentment, looking for happiness, and looking for a way to live life in a way that isn't a constant struggle. I view those things as legitimate concerns because they affect the way life is experienced. Is there anyone who doesn't want that? Does wanting that make one "special"? If anything I would characterize wanting those as being "normal".
Phil wrote:That seems like an opening to me. All of us, every religion, bumbling around in the dark, without a clue. All of us lost together, united in ignorance, completely outmatched by the enormity of where we find ourselves.

That could possibly lead to us all being one, united in silence.
Perhaps the "bumbling around" will be the motivation to look in a different way than has been previously tried, and that is the opening. Perhaps the "bumbling" will lead to looking in a different direction, a direction that will dissolve the sense of separatiion and lead to silence.
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Post by lucy » Sun May 14, 2006 12:14 am

I can see the fog lifting thanks to everybodies comments.

The reality without the story of "me", is that what is being referred to as the "truth". Gangaji talks about being a "servent of the truth", is that what she means, just watching everything unfold without adding the perceptions and filter of "little me" and my story.

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