Maybe enlightenment is a form of psychosis

This is the place to post whatever questions you have related to the teachings of Eckhart Tolle. The rest of us will do whatever we can to help you achieve a better understanding :)
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heidi
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Post by heidi » Sun May 14, 2006 12:21 am

That's all there is, my friend (to quote an old song), so let's keep dancing. Really, we are here, so let's Be it. It's all we have/are.
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Post by phil » Sun May 14, 2006 3:38 pm

Hi Kiki,

Thanks for your reply. I always enjoy your
articulateness. You could write about baseball scores
and it would still be worth reading, just to observe
your skill.

Let's try to explore some common ground.

You asked, "where are beliefs?"

4600 posts on this forum, plus tons more on forums
elsewhere. Hundreds, maybe thousands, of now books,
tapes, seminars, retreats etc. A small mountain of
thought and belief, growing ever towards the sky.
Observation lies at the heart of now, so just trying
to observe this thought mountain clearly.

You asked, "How can this nonconceptual natural state of
awareness be conveyed in a way which will be
satisfactory to the mind?"

By not bothering to convey it?

Can we find a plain and simple way to make the study of
now a truly plain and simple process, so the process
will not be in argument with itself?

We might take a big black magic marker, and draw a bold
line between our experience of silence, and everything
we think and say about it.

The experience in this corner.

The explanations over there in that corner.

The thought, beliefs, positions, concepts, arguments,
all the bizzare self contradictory stuff we say that
alienates the broader community from now. The glorious
future trips, the bald headed masters, the message that
what we have already isn't good enough, the TV-like
pitch encouraging us to get more, more, more, the
endless concern with me and my situation.

Everything that is not plain and simple, all of it, in
the explanations corner.

What's a plain and simple way to eat a peach? I feel
hungry. I walk to kitchen. Pick up peach. Smell
it. Eat it. Resume my day.

No need to write a book about it, build a religion
around it, or look to peaches for the solution to all
of life's challenges.

What's a plain and simple way to study now? I feel
buzzed, uncentered. I sit in a chair. Watch some
breaths. Take my time. Feel a bit better. Get up.
Resume my day.

If we want plain and simple, and a practice that really
is about setting aside thought, beliefs, etc, we
could just leave it at that. No need to build
a mountain.

If someone asks "Is enlightenment a form of pyschosis?"
we might reply, "Dang, I dunno, wanna meditate?"

Few of us have a clue what enlightenment or pyschosis
are, or if they even exist, so that's a plain and
simple answer, rooted in some truth.

But what about all the fun we have together here?

Ok, I'll set one of my ideas on this fence post, as if
it were a beer can.

Here, you take your keyboard BB gun and see it you can
hit my idea beer can.

Speaking of beer, pass me one, wouldya?

Hey, you hit my idea beer can, good for you!

OK, here's a bunch of beer cans for you, all
lined up on the fence posts of this page. You keep
the BB gun for awhile, and have some fun with
what I've written here.

I wanna hang on to the beer. Anybody got a peach?

Burp....!

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Post by Egoicmidget » Sun May 14, 2006 4:36 pm

You asked, "where are beliefs?"

4600 posts on this forum, plus tons more on forums
elsewhere. Hundreds, maybe thousands, of now books,
tapes, seminars, retreats etc. A small mountain of
thought and belief, growing ever towards the sky.
Observation lies at the heart of now, so just trying
to observe this thought mountain clearly.
I thought he meant were can you find beliefs within.
In fact were is the personna, personality the "thinker controller" I search within and find they are all witnessed.
I witness a being named John experience thought, opinion etc.
If I seek and ask where are my beliefs? I clearly see they are witnessed just like any other energy.
So If I am aware of these changing energy patterns they cannot be me.

I like the question "what am I"?
Anything witnessed cannot be who you are.
The only constant is the witness which when examined within myself I cannot find. Why? Because it is doing the searching and cannot find itself, it is itself. It can't see through it's own eyes because it is doing the seeing.
The witness aware of itself. Becomes one, the witness.
There is no deep mind draining, mind trying, contortions we need to go through to"understand" the utter simplicity of just allowing everything to be as it is. Life flows from the deep waters of stillness and things will be as they unfold anyway!

Who is watching Phil type?

John
Last edited by Egoicmidget on Sun May 14, 2006 4:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by lucy » Sun May 14, 2006 4:40 pm

My original question "Is enlightenment a form of psychosis" seems to have been lost here. That is great, because it shows just how slippery the mind/ego can be. We have "rambled" into another territory, proof that the mind is not a reliable source of truth because the more it tries, the further away it gets.

My original question was spawned by the fear that loss of individuality would lead to a loss of functioning in the so called real world. People who are delusional or suffer from other forms of psychosis seem to have also had some inner shift in perception or focus that take their ability away to function in the shared reality.

ET in TNE observes a woman on a train who was talking to herself and appeared to be delusional. When she got off the train, ET followed her for a ways because she was headed in the same direction as him. She in fact was going to the same university where ET worked. I guess for people who are delusional or suffer from other mental illnesses, e.g, multiple personalities, the mind is OVER-ACTIVE and not stilled, hence the entity that is "little me" is innudated with so much thought that it doesn't know which to turn. And maybe this is the starting point for all of us, like Heidi mentioned in one of her posts. Maybe it is the "little me" that has split off from our true "self", and to free ourselves from suffering, we have to integrate that entitly back into the whole of our nature.

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Post by kiki » Sun May 14, 2006 7:26 pm

Phil wrote:What's a plain and simple way to eat a peach? I feel
hungry. I walk to kitchen. Pick up peach. Smell
it. Eat it. Resume my day.

No need to write a book about it, build a religion
around it, or look to peaches for the solution to all
of life's challenges.

What's a plain and simple way to study now? I feel
buzzed, uncentered. I sit in a chair. Watch some
breaths. Take my time. Feel a bit better. Get up.
Resume my day.

If we want plain and simple, and a practice that really
is about setting aside thought, beliefs, etc, we
could just leave it at that. No need to build
a mountain.
I agree with all of this. Try telling that to people and more than likely they won't believe you, so they start asking questions. Then before you know it, you have a discussion board entry, a lecture, a satsang, a book published, and a "bunch of miserable seekers cluttering up your living room" as UG Krishnamurti has said.

I like the simplicity of this: when you eat a peach, then just eat a peach. When you wash the dishes, then just wash the dishes. In other words, do only one thing at a time; there's no need to think about what you are doing. It can't get much simpler than that. Will this "explanation" suffice for most people? Probably not.
Phil wrote:Ok, I'll set one of my ideas on this fence post, as if
it were a beer can.

Here, you take your keyboard BB gun and see it you can
hit my idea beer can.
Wonderful imagery, Phil! You can really make me smile with your penchant for this sort of writing. As an aside comment, when I was a kid I had a pellet gun. One of my favorite things was to use a stick match for a target and then light it by hitting the tip of the match with a pellet from 20 feet away. I got pretty good at it. Those were the days.

Time for a beer now.

k

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Post by kiki » Sun May 14, 2006 7:33 pm

lucy wrote:My original question was spawned by the fear that loss of individuality would lead to a loss of functioning in the so called real world.
That's an understandable and reasonable question. From my own experience, it is this sort of question that keeps the awakened state from being consciously seen. When questions are let go of life continues to flow as it always did, but without the resistence and struggle that arises out of thinking. The "individual" is still here but it is no longer troublesome, and it fades away when it isn't needed.

Now, where's my beer?

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Post by phil » Sun May 14, 2006 10:51 pm

kiki wrote:I agree with all of this. Try telling that to people and more than likely they won't believe you, so they start asking questions.
Yes, I agree. So, how to respond to these questions?

One way to answer might be to say, "Don't ask me, ask the silence. Do your own homework and stop trying to copy off my paper."

If the students persist, the teacher might let out a loud fart, and loudly exclaim, "Damn ya'll, too many frigging beans!" That is, explode the authority trip.

Instead, some teachers start their best selling book with the story of their own personal enlightenment experience, which sets in motion a big future trip in the reader's mind, and establishes the teacher as the place to go for answers, thus inviting lots of questions.
kiki wrote:Then before you know it, you have a discussion board entry, a lecture, a satsang, a book published
And each one of these can say, "Don't ask me, ask the silence."

I do agree with you that one does not catch noisy fish with only a message of "Do nothing."

So a good teacher will likely be an entertaining likeable person who can put on a good show.

Perhaps they play the banjo, or do impersonations, or have a knack for story telling, or are ventriliguists and can project their voice in to a ridiculous looking dummy who plays the role of the ego. Whatever the gimmick, one fills the seats and puts on a happening. And then perhaps slides a few meditation tips in around the edges.

But what we get instead from now teachers is first an authority trip, then a future trip, then fancy religion and baffling concepts, exactly the kind of thought based stuff that seems designed to encourage students to begin a process of figuring something out.

Isn't plain and simple just about exactly the wrong expression to use to describe the process by which we try to become plain and simple?
Phil wrote:One of my favorite things was to use a stick match for a target and then light it by hitting the tip of the match with a pellet from 20 feet away. I got pretty good at it. Those were the days.
Yikes, thanks for the warning Kiki Eastwoood. That's the end of rhetorical shootouts for me! I'm on the next stage out of town, I promise.

I can see it now, I come riding in here all boozed up on ego, and ready to spray down the saloon with some cosmic burpage, and Kiki faces me down from the other end of the street.

"Go ahead Phil," he says in a deadpan voice, "make my day...." :-)

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Post by kiki » Mon May 15, 2006 12:52 am

Phil wrote:Yes, I agree. So, how to respond to these questions?

One way to answer might be to say, "Don't ask me, ask the silence. Do your own homework and stop trying to copy off my paper."



Yes, ask the silence. Then the inevitable question comes into their mind and is directed at the latest authority figure for them, "How do I do that?", and we are off and running again.
Phil wrote:If the students persist, the teacher might let out a loud fart, and loudly exclaim, "Damn ya'll, too many frigging beans!"

Ha!!! That would probably be a very effective way to trigger a satori experience in someone.

Let's see now.... I've already got my beer.....let me check to see if I have any beans.....OK, good; let me just gobble up a can of Bush's Baked Beans....give it a little time to do its magic....wait for it.....wait for it.....in the meantime, let me pump up that pellet gun to lethal pressure, place the match in position....(now, this will take some real timing)....take aim....waiting, waiting......NOW! pull both "triggers" simulataneously!!! Anyone within sight, smell, or earshot should be "awakened" now!

:wink: Sorry folks, Phil is bringing out my crude but playful nature.

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Post by phil » Mon May 15, 2006 2:44 am

kiki wrote:Yes, ask the silence. Then the inevitable question comes into their mind and is directed at the latest authority figure for them, "How do I do that?", and we are off and running again.


Ok, yes, I hear you. We students need, rather demand, something to do. That perceived need must be addressed, or we all go back to watching TV.

So we have to be off and running somewhere, agreed.

But we don't have to be off and running in to a lot of religious thoughtage and fancy concepts. At the least, the teacher does not need to be the one leading us in that direction.

Let's do observation pushups, instead of conceptual gymnastics. That's a bit more plain and simple, and can still keep us off and running while that need exists.

We could count how many hours we meditate. Sitting and watching breaths, walking and watching steps, or whatever little observation routine floats our boat.

We'll get out our oven timer, and a calendar, and keep track of every hour, and rush headlong in to building the biggest pile of meditation hours we can.

Hey, look, we no longer need an authority figure to distract us from the fact that we are the one and only person who can change our own lives.

Hey, look, just about any sincere person with a bit of experience can be a now teacher once we pull out all the explanations and leave only the experience.

Hey, look, there's not much left in the teaching of now to alienate anybody who already has some set of philosophical beliefs. Now has become a univeral subject, a unifying force, not a dividing one.

Anyway, this general direction seems perhaps worth a look.
kiki wrote:take aim....waiting, waiting......NOW! pull both "triggers" simulataneously!!! Anyone within sight, smell, or earshot should be "awakened" now!


Snort! Alright then, it's finally decided. Beer, baked beans, and pellet guns, the one true path to enlightenment. It was a lot of work all these years, but it was worth it to finally get the real answer. :-) Well done Kiki!

But Kiki, what does that aroma mean???

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Post by gina » Tue May 16, 2006 8:18 pm

...
Last edited by gina on Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by lakeswimr » Sun May 28, 2006 6:04 am

phil wrote:
kiki wrote:I agree with all of this. Try telling that to people and more than likely they won't believe you, so they start asking questions.
Yes, I agree. So, how to respond to these questions?

One way to answer might be to say, "Don't ask me, ask the silence. Do your own homework and stop trying to copy off my paper."

If the students persist, the teacher might let out a loud fart, and loudly exclaim, "Damn ya'll, too many frigging beans!" That is, explode the authority trip.

Instead, some teachers start their best selling book with the story of their own personal enlightenment experience, which sets in motion a big future trip in the reader's mind, and establishes the teacher as the place to go for answers, thus inviting lots of questions.
kiki wrote:Then before you know it, you have a discussion board entry, a lecture, a satsang, a book published
And each one of these can say, "Don't ask me, ask the silence."

I do agree with you that one does not catch noisy fish with only a message of "Do nothing."

So a good teacher will likely be an entertaining likeable person who can put on a good show.

Perhaps they play the banjo, or do impersonations, or have a knack for story telling, or are ventriliguists and can project their voice in to a ridiculous looking dummy who plays the role of the ego. Whatever the gimmick, one fills the seats and puts on a happening. And then perhaps slides a few meditation tips in around the edges.

But what we get instead from now teachers is first an authority trip, then a future trip, then fancy religion and baffling concepts, exactly the kind of thought based stuff that seems designed to encourage students to begin a process of figuring something out.

Isn't plain and simple just about exactly the wrong expression to use to describe the process by which we try to become plain and simple?
Phil wrote:One of my favorite things was to use a stick match for a target and then light it by hitting the tip of the match with a pellet from 20 feet away. I got pretty good at it. Those were the days.
Yikes, thanks for the warning Kiki Eastwoood. That's the end of rhetorical shootouts for me! I'm on the next stage out of town, I promise.

I can see it now, I come riding in here all boozed up on ego, and ready to spray down the saloon with some cosmic burpage, and Kiki faces me down from the other end of the street.

"Go ahead Phil," he says in a deadpan voice, "make my day...." :-)
Just jumping in, Phil, to say, I don't think the farting thing would have done it for me. :lol:

Seriously, I was a seeker for most of my life and serious seeker for about 17 + years and never until ET did I have a glimps of what I was seeking (shrug) And kiki also helped me along by answering my questions. So I think teachers have their place. I think some teachers actually make it harder for some students. I think ET is very clear and easy for people to 'get' compared to many past writers who said the very same thing.

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Post by phil » Sun May 28, 2006 11:17 am

lakeswimr wrote:I think ET is very clear and easy for people to 'get' compared to many past writers who said the very same thing.
Yes, I agree, completely. Compared to past writers, Tolle's writing is much better suited to this era. No question about it.

So, I'd like to see us celebrate and honor Tolle's work by continuing his work, for the era's to come.

I'd like to see us follow Tolle's leadership and example, and do what Tolle himself did.

Tolle didn't say "Those old Indian teachers are good enough, let them read that."

Tolle didn't say, "I've got my awakening, let those other people worry about how to get theirs."

Tolle had a vision of how to make the message simpler, and thus accessible to more people, and he got off his butt and made it happen.

And we're so grateful he did.

Please, observe. Somebody made the message simpler, and now we get it.

We're not supposed to stop here, and build an altar around Tolle and worship him for the next 2,000 years.

We're supposed to take our turn, and make the message of simplicity simpler yet, so even more people can have a taste of silence.

We're supposed to move the ball down the field.

We're supposed to do what Tolle did.

Thanks for listening!

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Post by heidi » Sun May 28, 2006 3:05 pm

Great post, Phil. :)

In fact, that whole, build the altar thing, that whole identity thing, we need to drop that ball, and take the unmanifested down the field. :lol:
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Post by phil » Sun May 28, 2006 3:24 pm

heidi wrote: and take the unmanifested down the field. :lol:
We, including me, need to surrender words like "unmanifested" if we choose that anybody outside of our little new age community should ever care what we're talking about. :-)

It's a choice we have, that's all.

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Post by heidi » Sun May 28, 2006 4:45 pm

Okay so then, we shall drop our ego identifying with stuff and run freely down the field.
How's that?

Drop the jalopy / drive the Maserati all around the field. :lol:

Drop the weight of the old ways for the lightness of Now! :D

How am I doing, Phil?
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