Tolle's View on Schizophrenia

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Tolle's View on Schizophrenia

Postby Clare » Fri Jan 07, 2005 3:51 pm

Hello everyone,

I wondered if anyone could point me in the direction of anything Eckhart has said about the nature of schizophrenia related to presence and consciousness -- and/or give me their own views on this.

My nephew - my brothers son - who was born when I was seven years old, so is now in his thirties, has suffered from this destructive pattern for about twelve years now, and it seems to be getting progressively worse regardless of the countless treatments and approaches that have been taken. The main enemy to progress is my nephew's refusal to stick to any treatment as soon as he has personal responsibility, and worsening his condiiton with recreational drugs - which he sees as self-medication.

I've long understood that it as a spiritual crisis condition, yet one that is very hard to recover from in a single lifetime. I've also strongly got a suspicion that it is very deeply connected to the survival of the ego.

Any insights or pointers greatly appreciated.
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Postby heidi » Sun Jan 09, 2005 1:06 am

Hi Clare - The ego does need conflict to survive. Lately I've noticed how I can create conflict for myself - such as doing things I know are "unhealthy" and then having this little inner stife going on, keeping my ego in a co-dependent state, ha ha, with me as the enabler :?

Mental illness is something that I can't judge. Some might ask what is normal? And is normal actually healthy? :?:
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Postby Clare » Sun Jan 09, 2005 2:37 am

Hi Heidi,

I don't feel normality is really the thing I was questioning. What is healthy is certainly an issue. At this present time, my nephew has seriously harmed someone weaker than himself, and is potentially dangerous to other people.

- then again, so is George Bush :)

But I just talked about my nephew to fill people in on why I was interested in the phenomena of 'mental illness'. I do want to look into it as an extension of the madness of mental dominance in general. A 'mental illness' is just that. Eckhart may say that we are all ill if we are mentally dominated. It just seems to me that schizophrenia is an exaggeration of this?

And whether we like it or not, the reality is there is a very set condition that, normal or not, healthy or not, causes chemicals in the brain that perceive things to get unbalanced and this results in delusions that can terrify the individual (called the psychotic pahse) leaving the person in much distress, unable to cope with the world that surrounds them.

Then again, when I write that, it sounds a lot like the thing all of us go through until we stop interpreting the world according to our limited beleif system, only in... say me, it may cause me to feel ...I dunno...lonely in a crowd sometimes; however, in someone like my nephew, it may cause him to feel that the crowd is actually a bunch of undercover agents who are trying to poison him with nerve gas. The very premise of this for me is how mental illness is an extension of the overactive thought process and identification with the idea of separateness and ego.

Any ideas anyone?
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Postby heidi » Sun Jan 09, 2005 3:28 am

Clare wrote:... The very premise of this for me is how mental illness is an extension of the overactive thought process and identification with the idea of separateness and ego.

Any ideas anyone?


You are definitely on to something here. Though, by defining it, does that do anything to help the affected? Just asking - not a challenge. I guess what I'm coming to is that by defining or judging what the probelm is or how it comes about, I can't see the link to solution - though I'd like to :)
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Postby Guest » Sun Jan 09, 2005 1:09 pm

heidi wrote:[ I guess what I'm coming to is that by defining or judging what the probelm is or how it comes about, I can't see the link to solution - though I'd like to :)


Well, Heidi, I suppose traditionally solutions are come to by first finding out why something happens at source, although I'm not sure if that is what I am doing. All I know at this time is the current approach to mental illness is stone -age, very much making the mentally ill person separate from the rest of society, and just blocking the chemical imbalance if they can, with many side-effects. I've seen first hand how ineffectivethis can be. I haven't yet got a reason to want to understand this on another level, it just occured to me that I could understand it on another level - that's all. I have yet to define or judge where this is leading me or what would be helpful or even if I am finding a solution - or even if a solution is necessary. It just occured to me, so I put it out there.
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Postby Guest » Sun Jan 09, 2005 1:35 pm

Oh and I'm not 'guest', I'm Clare, who replied to you in the post above. For some reason my logging in didnt work. This is one of the reasons a delete and edit option would be helpful

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Postby heidi » Sun Jan 09, 2005 2:36 pm

You can edit posts. There's a little edit button upper right of the message field. You probably have to be logged in. And there's an X there too for deleting.
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Postby AndyD » Sun Jan 09, 2005 5:16 pm

I have several friends diagnosed with different disorders such as clinical depression, bi polar disorder, hyper mania.

What I have noticed is that their life story consists almost entirely of their illness and they see everyone else in terms of any mental illness they do or do not have. Behaving badly towards someone else is justified by their illness or incorrect medication while everyone else should do everything correctly as they have nothing wrong with them.

What I am pleased with is that the friend I have spent the most time with (who recenltly lost his job because of clinical depression) has recently made huge changes in his outlook. He no longer talks about his depression, snaps at people, gets road rage or spends all day getting stoned - in fact, he seems fine now. What I put it down to is discussing his behaviour (very subtly as guys generally don't like to think that someone is telling them what to do) while been very present (thinking about it, it was easier been present when with him than by myself). Everytime I brought something he would argue his justification but I would not argue back, simply allowing my point to sink in. A few days later his behaviour in regards to what I mentioned would have changed slightly and within a couple of weeks it would be almost completly transformed.

Personally I think that too much empasis is placed on medication and not enough on communication. Most of my friends would argue this - but that's because my statement would shake their life story :wink:
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Postby summer » Sun Jan 09, 2005 9:34 pm

I remember Eckhart humorously suggesting that planet Earth may be the insane asylum of the universe :lol:
And he often speaks about how "normal human behavior" is quite insane. When someone is clinically diagnosed with a mental illness, often they just have a more extreme form of the same behavior that 'normal' people exhibit.

We all have our POOR ME story. Perhaps some people with a diagnosis for this illness, develop even more of an identity for feeling victimized. Add to this lots of powerful medication and they get really messed up.

I like Andy's suggestion for healing. If therapists could listen in a state of presence, then all kinds of transformation could take place.

Easier said than done :)
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Re: Tolle's View on Schizophrenia

Postby Jim » Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:50 pm

Clare wrote:Hello everyone,

I wondered if anyone could point me in the direction of anything Eckhart has said about the nature of schizophrenia related to presence and consciousness -- and/or give me their own views on this.

My nephew - my brothers son - who was born when I was seven years old, so is now in his thirties, has suffered from this destructive pattern for about twelve years now, and it seems to be getting progressively worse regardless of the countless treatments and approaches that have been taken. The main enemy to progress is my nephew's refusal to stick to any treatment as soon as he has personal responsibility, and worsening his condiiton with recreational drugs - which he sees as self-medication.

I've long understood that it as a spiritual crisis condition, yet one that is very hard to recover from in a single lifetime. I've also strongly got a suspicion that it is very deeply connected to the survival of the ego.

Any insights or pointers greatly appreciated.
Clare


Hi Clare,

I tried to quote a small section of your response, but it seems your whole post has become the quote?
Anyway, I can relate to your concerns, I have personally known 6 people whom have taken thier own lives. My wife has just recently risen from a deep depression/trama which has lasted for over 2 years. There was a period of about 6 months that she wouldn't even get out of bed.
Fear can truly distort reality for the one whom has surrendered to... or accepted it as truth.
I believe that the best we can do (on the surface), is to help them look very closely at the root of the fear. When we understand that this fear is very real to them... and join them at their level.... then gently bring reason and hope to them thru our communication, it has become helpful in my experiance.
Of course, I believe that the real help comes from beneath the surface. When we bring ourselves in tune with the Presence, we become a vessel for a higher vibrational energy to rise the field... or lift the level of consciousness within the field.
In the very act of disecting the disorder, and trying to understand it, we have actually given it the power of our belief that it is real. This is a low energy level in which can actually pull us into the delusion with them... even if for only a moment...
All is well,
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Postby Clare » Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:19 pm

AndyD wrote:What I have noticed is that their life story consists almost entirely of their illness and they see everyone else in terms of any mental illness they do or do not have. Behaving badly towards someone else is justified by their illness or incorrect medication while everyone else should do everything correctly as they have nothing wrong with them.

:wink:


Hi Andy,

I have observed much the same thing, and when I look at the observations you have made, it is all about ego-identification, almost as if this illness is created from the feelings of total identification with the ego-self, and then because this makes the person sick, the only way in which they can assuage the illness is by continually feeding their pain body and it literally becomes them in a huge way in times of psychotic or bi-polar, or whatever episodes

It's true also for me that it is very hard to be forgiving when, for all the the helplessness against this imbalance, I can observe my nephew very deliberately and often quite very cleverly sabotaging any happiness that is offered or made for him to allow the schizophrenia to proliferate. There seems to be need to feed off of the pain bodies of others, allow it to grow, as most people who love the person with the disorder get very hurt and despairing too, blaming themselves and eachother. I've seen the collective pain body that this imblance has brought up literally tear through my family like a tornado. There is a still centre that we all need to find, yet the temptation is to get swept along with it, just like the relentless thought process of the mind.

I need to take a leaf out of your book Andy and get very still and present in the face of the collective pain body that has arisen as a result. I do see how this may be the calming influnce that eventuallly allows deeper tryuths to drop into place in the laps of those bound into living illusions.

I am also very aware how each and every person affected by this imblance has agreed to go through this porcess and also is a part of the imbalance, as we are all connected.


Summer: thank you for the comments on what Eckhart said. I do think they are rather judgemental of him! I don't think for one second that this earth is an insane asylum. I feel it is a place full of love and hope, that sometimes gets caught up in the insanity of fear. Just the way it never ceases to amaze me how dogs bred for fighting can, even if in love-meagre circumstances, still find the love in themselves to wag their tail and want to play, I find it astonishing that humans can be brought into this world in such spiritually desolate circumstances and still find a place to love and be kind. If you give a human or a dog any love or kindness, they usually blossom. Not all of course, but most.


Jim, thanks for your comments too. Mental illness can be devastating, not just for the person involved but forthe ones around them dealing with the fall-out. You have given me an idea of how to approach being in the 'fall-out' position. Many thanks

And many thanks to all
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