How do drugs affect your presence?

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forgotaboutbre
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How do drugs affect your presence?

Post by forgotaboutbre » Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:01 am

Specifically in my case I am struggling with weed. Sometimes when I smoke I feel like I am able to clear away mental clutter, but then when the high fades and my painbodies resurface my mind says, "AHA it was the weed that let me do this i NEED more weed". Shouldn't it be possible to do drugs and stay present if you completely accept that you are high and that your ordinary perception is altered?

On a side note, I took Adderall for two years and woke up one day 2 months ago and quit it cold turkey. I feel like the Adderall actually made me more mind identified. It took the edge off of every day, made life more bearable but the fact is I depended on the medication to feel "normal" and was in effect burying the pain that the malaise of every day felt like instead of facing and accepting my listlessness.

What have your experiences been with drugs and presence?

--Mike

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Re: How do drugs affect your presence?

Post by kiki » Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:28 am

What have your experiences been with drugs and presence?
I don't use drugs, but on rare occasions I'll have a beer or glass of wine. Beer just makes me pee and wine gives me a headache, but they don't affect presence in any way.
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Re: How do drugs affect your presence?

Post by Webwanderer » Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:48 am

Genuine presence is about clarity. In marijuana induced states, it "may" help in becoming focused in the present, but it's not so likely to improve clarity - especially with constant use. Years ago, I thought is was an asset to enhanced consciousness. But it slowly became clear that it was more of a hinderence than a help. As my interest in clarity began to outweigh my enjoyment of altered states, the choice became easy. It's strange, I never actually quit. I just don't want it anymore.

WW

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Re: How do drugs affect your presence?

Post by Ananda » Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:48 am

Many Sadhus (holy men) who practice austerities in India thrive on hash. It helps them to clear their mind for their spiritual practices (tapas). They say that anyone who is undisciplined will not be able to smoke it and practice at the same time. In the strictest sense all attachment to experiences has to cease, this includes drug induced experiences also. One's awareness is not actually affected by using drugs as it is the background for all experiences, both with and without drugs. But there is a danger there of seeking after altered experiences within consciousness which are caused by drug use.

The goal is not to find any altered state of consciousness (be it with drugs or otherwise), the goal is to realize the nature of the one who seems to be 'I', the experiencer of all the different states of consciousness.

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Re: How do drugs affect your presence?

Post by 18andlife » Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:17 am

Ananda wrote:...the goal is to realize the nature of the one who seems to be 'I', the experiencer of all the different states of consciousness.
Correction mon frère, that is a goal, but not necessarily the goal.

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Re: How do drugs affect your presence?

Post by forgotaboutbre » Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:18 am

Ananda wrote:The goal is not to find any altered state of consciousness (be it with drugs or otherwise), the goal is to realize the nature of the one who seems to be 'I', the experiencer of all the different states of consciousness.
I do find that in the altered state of consciousness under the influence of marijuana I am flooded with delusion. Sometimes the insights are so powerful that I am hypnotized by them. Ideally I spend my time high watching the amusing delusions float through my head, never succumbing to their temptation. However most of the time I get sucked in. When I do experience peace in my head while I am high my mind usually grabs ahold of the feeling pretty quickly and before I know it I think I need weed to get back there.

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Re: How do drugs affect your presence?

Post by Ananda » Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:25 am

18andlife wrote:
Ananda wrote:...the goal is to realize the nature of the one who seems to be 'I', the experiencer of all the different states of consciousness.
Correction mon frère, that is a goal, but not necessarily the goal.

Oh, do please tell me which question can be of greater importance in the striving for Self realization than 'Who am I?'

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Re: How do drugs affect your presence?

Post by 18andlife » Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:27 am

Oh, do please tell me which question can be of greater importance in the striving for Self realization than 'Who am I?'
Granted that is an important spiritual question, but if you assume it's the only important spiritual question you're placing a limit what can potentially be realized.

I'm not questioning your statement, I'm questioning your assumption...

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Re: How do drugs affect your presence?

Post by Ananda » Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:53 am

if you assume it's the only important spiritual question you're placing a limit what can potentially be realized.

I'm not questioning your statement, I'm questioning your assumption...
And where exactly did I make the assumption that it was the only important spiritual question?

I believe this is called a 'straw man' :)

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Re: How do drugs affect your presence?

Post by 18andlife » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:53 am

Eariler on you presumed to say that a goal was the goal, when you said "...the goal is to realize the nature of the one who seems to be 'I', the experiencer of all the different states of consciousness." Any subsequent assumptions seem to arise from that one. I don't think it's called a straw man, I think it's called someone questioning a rather big assumption that you are making. Live with it. :D

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Re: How do drugs affect your presence?

Post by SirNikalot » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:10 am

I find l-theanine, which is a supplement, helps with relaxation without causing any rebound or hangover like symptoms alcohol or other tranquilizers can cause. Weed for me sometimes helps, other times it causes a flood of paranoia and anxiety which I already kind of have to deal with on day to day basis, so I chose not to indulge. I've also toyed with ADHD stimulants like adderall, and like you, I've found it to help short term, but its no answer, it makes me feel joy for a period of time until it wears off. It can also causes me to feel weird after a few days of consecutive use, causing me to feel almost inversely crappy the next few days. From my current perspective, its okay to take medication, unless you become attached to it, because you can't grow from it if you think you need this medication to be yourself fully, because that's simply not true. And with most medications, including weed, tolerance develops, or side-effects develop, and that can leave you in a deep hole of suffering if you don't keep it in check.

I noticed you made the comment "it was the weed that let me do this i NEED more weed." That's a pretty honest and astute observation of what you were thinking at the time, I encourage you to investigate this comment. Maybe ask yourself, "was it the weed that made me do this, was it really the weed?" Try to answer your question as honestly as possible and see what you come up with and examine them as well.

Wow, I just realized I have the same thoughts with regards to alcohol "it was the alcohol that made me talk to that pretty girl" or "it was the alcohol that made me so friendly, I would never be able to do that if I were sobre." Interesting....

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Re: How do drugs affect your presence?

Post by Ananda » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:28 am

Any subsequent assumptions seem to arise from that one
Again I ask, where did I make the assumption that the question 'Who am I?' is the only important spiritual question?
It may be my opinion that the discovery of the nature of one's Self is the main goal of one's life, or the most important, or the greatest, but can you please point me to where I have said it is the only goal? Is it not, instead, that you have simply assumed I meant the only goal because I simply excluded mentioning any other goal? This is a forum dedicated to Eckhart Tolle and other spiritual teachers who's main focus is Self-realization, or enlightenment. So, surely, in the context of this forum it is quite appropriate for me to say that the goal is to realize the nature of one's own Self, is it not?
I think it's called someone questioning a rather big assumption that you are making
It appears that all you have managed to do is question an assumption which I did not make, which is indeed called a straw man.

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Re: How do drugs affect your presence?

Post by 18andlife » Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:13 pm

Again I ask, where did I make the assumption that the question 'Who am I?' is the only important spiritual question?
I don't think that I can explain it any better than I already have, twice. But, I'll try, what I am saying is: just don't assume that everyone's goal for being on this forum is to realize the nature of the one who seems to be 'I'. Believe it or not, it's actually pretty low on my spiritual priority list. I'm not saying it's not important, but it's not overly important to me. So don't assume that it's the goal for everyone here, or that is was the goal of the IP when they posted the initial question about how drugs affect presence.

For the record: I do respect your particular attainment very much, and I don't for a second question that you have personally realized it. I read your posts and it's obvious that you have an extrordinary depth to your particular insight. But it is particular, so when it comes to what the goal is, please understand that you are speaking only for yourself. If you'd said "my goal is" instead of "the goal is" I would never even have mentioned it, but that's not what you said.

...What do ya say Ananda, let's put a pin in this, shall we...? We both know that this coin is so thin that it has no edge, so let's not pretend to be on either side of it. :)

...I wish I could add to forgotaboutbre's question about experiences been with drugs and presence; it's an intersting topic. Sorry all, for dragging things off track.

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Re: How do drugs affect your presence?

Post by Webwanderer » Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:33 pm

My fine fellow members, could you please take this side discussion to a new thread or even a PM. There appears to be an inadvertent hijacking of this thread on drugs and presence.

Thanks,

WW

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Re: How do drugs affect your presence?

Post by karmarider » Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:51 pm

I smoke weed when the opportunity rises. It does shift consciousness, and though it is not the clarity of awareness, the shift is releasing and broadens perspective.

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