What gets enlightened

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What gets enlightened

Post by Mouse » Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:07 pm

It is said that there is no I in the state of being.

And yet what gets enlightened? .....Is it 'I' that just speeds up and gets lighter and moves closer to unknowable me and further from my self.

Or is it my self that becomes enlightened.
I have been inspired by Barry Long's teaching and I write this so as to acknowledge my source of inspiration. It is a wonderful help, and it is a wonderful gift.

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Re: What gets enlightened

Post by HermitLoon » Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:57 pm

Good question - similar to "who am I".

[On realization] That which cannot change, remains. The great peace, the deep silence, the hidden beauty of reality remains. While it cannot be conveyed through words, it is waiting for you to experience for yourself. (476) (100-101)
Nisargadatta Maharaj
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Re: What gets enlightened

Post by Ananda » Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:07 pm

It's the body which produces ignorance covering the Self. That ignorance is removed when the Self is discerned (by itself) and the removal of ignorance is what constitutes 'enlightenment'. So, to answer your question; the Self is always free, only (the bodies) ignorance is removed in order to see this.

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Re: What gets enlightened

Post by vera » Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:29 pm

I have been asking the same question lately. Although my phrasing has been 'What is it that realises?'

My last question of this kind to the forum was 'What is it that is identifying?' And the response that came back was that it was mind identifying with mind.

Am I right now in understanding that it is self that becomes aware of self?

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Re: What gets enlightened

Post by kiki » Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:16 pm

Vera wrote:Am I right now in understanding that it is self that becomes aware of self?
The Self is simply aware and conscious - without an object to illuminate, it stands in its own knowingness, knowingly. So you could say it is self-illuminating though there is no "thing" which gets illuminated. We are bumping up against a very difficult thing to describe because it is totally beyond the conceptual, which is the realm of thought/mind - when words are used we objectify Self, but Self is not an object.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
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Re: What gets enlightened

Post by vera » Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:49 pm

Thanks, kiki. This is what I am finding hard at the moment - the limitation of words. People talk and write of 'truth realisation' which suggests there is something that is realising.

Different teachers talk about this in different ways and it can be confusing. I suppose because I am still coming from a conceptual place it is particularly difficult.

What I have now is a clear understanding of what I am not. As far as what I am, the best I have is a sense of a constant - something that has always been present and exactly the same, whether I was three years old, or ten, or twenty-four. However I still identify that as something separate to myself and I don't know how to shift my perspective.

I can see that that everything else is happening against or arising out of this constant. I can see that as everything else I experience stops and starts, rises and falls, shifts and changes, that logically and pragmatically I can only be that constant at the root of it all. But it still feels like I'm pressing up against a glass wall, looking in at something. It's all still just something in my head.

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Re: What gets enlightened

Post by HermitLoon » Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:52 pm

Unease (dissatisfaction) with a mind-created reality can lead to negation of that "reality" and a search for what is more "real". This exploration can sometimes lead to a mental "reality" that is more comfortable - and sometimes to an indescribable "reality" that is beyond the mind and can only be "known/experienced" without description. Following this "path" is neither important nor necessary - it is simply a possibility.
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Re: What gets enlightened

Post by vera » Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:09 pm

I feel like all there is left to do is give up. I don't see anything that can be 'done.' I get frustrated with the search, realise that this kind of frustration and internal push-pull is exactly what I am trying to be released from, and yet giving up, surrendering, is the one thing I don't seem able to do. I can read books, I can ask questions, I can listen to audio, meditate, reflect on whatever questions arise, inquire, etc. But it's all still something that is going on in my mind.

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Re: What gets enlightened

Post by HermitLoon » Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:50 pm

Yes - the mind wants certainty and continuity and can become very "frustrated" when there is input that doesn't conform to it's sense of "reality". This can lead to the "fight or flight" reaction of "giving up". The "direct path" of surrender - of "not knowing" - can be very threatening.
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Re: What gets enlightened

Post by kiki » Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:13 pm

I feel like all there is left to do is give up. I don't see anything that can be 'done.'
Believe it or not, this is very good.
I get frustrated with the search, realise that this kind of frustration and internal push-pull is exactly what I am trying to be released from,
Yes, that's precisely the case.
and yet giving up, surrendering, is the one thing I don't seem able to do. I can read books, I can ask questions, I can listen to audio, meditate, reflect on whatever questions arise, inquire, etc. But it's all still something that is going on in my mind.
So at some point it will all drop away, and then you'll find what is sought. And what that is is so simple, so obvious, that you'll later wonder how it could have been missed, and you'll chuckle at your previous efforts to get it. You'll see then that there is no entity present that "surrenders" - all there is is the truth of what You are that surrenders to whatever is unfolding. It's the ego's idea of what surrender is that it finds threatening, but the ego is not even real, it is only a bundle of thought-forms that is identified with.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
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Re: What gets enlightened

Post by Sighclone » Fri Jul 02, 2010 7:00 pm

However I still identify that as something separate to myself and I don't know how to shift my perspective.
Vera wakes up every morning and there she is. The same "vera." Same memories, still doesn't like oysters, likes some rap, doesn't like red cars, is a little embarrased by all her shoes, etc... Has a different relationship with each member of her family, sometimes drives too fast, orders water immediately at the restaurant, always takes an aisle seat on an airplane. (Add the real pieces of "vera.")

None of that will change when you self-realize. And you can enter that "little me" self and become completely absorbed in it, and enjoy it. But self-realization is the added perspective of a much different "scope of truth." I hate to recommend another book to you, but I will: John Welwood's "Toward a Psychology of Awakening," especially the first third which talks at length about the ego.

Before you had any cognitive sense of enlightenment, you could not "look past" yourself, with the exception of some vague "mystical" sense of "a bigger picture." Everyone has that vague sense that "this is not all there is." So you have been reading and meditating, chatting here and elsewhere and evolving.

The "separate self vera" you know is separate from "Andy" or "Kiki." Do not expect that self to "shift perspective." You already have a sense of oneness, of Self. That is something new for you, and clearer. And yet separate from “vera.” That’s Ok.

Tim Freke talks about the “both/and” paradox of awakening. You are both “little vera” and you know you are merged with Being, as Awareness. Where is that Awareness? Is it inside your head, in your brain? If someone cracked open your head would they find it there?

Oh darn, another book recommendation: “How Long is Now?” by Tim Freke. Hey, he even touches on reincarnation there…

Be well, be clear, be the present moment, and the unique expression of Spirit as "vera.".

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: What gets enlightened

Post by Mouse » Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:40 am

Ananda
So could it be said that the Self produces a body of ignorance in order to know itself?

Why not produce a body of love instead of a body of ignorance if Self is doing it to know itself. Why is unhappiness and the other conditions of ego necessary if it is all for the purpose of that which is perfect to know itself.

It seems to me there is a hidden X factor, or transparency, or I involved that goes from ignorance to freedom. To start with it is identified with the body and this produces ignorance.
I have been inspired by Barry Long's teaching and I write this so as to acknowledge my source of inspiration. It is a wonderful help, and it is a wonderful gift.

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Re: What gets enlightened

Post by Mouse » Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:04 am

vera wrote:I have been asking the same question lately.
Hi Vera

I would like to clarify terms, kind of a like spiritual glossary and we can all know what we are refering to:

Self = Being = the state of being = impersonal

self = ego = the human condition = emotional entity = thinking = mind

I = ? perhaps individual Consciousness appearing as a temporary Body

And please update this or alter it to your understanding and repost if you want to (everybody)

To answer your question from my own experience
Am I right now in understanding that it is self that becomes aware of self?
It is I that become aware of my self's activities that are making me unhappy, it is like it is doing stuff on its' own,and so I start to disidentify with that.

What 'I' am is still up for debate. If I am an individual consciousness not seperate from Self then that is my candidate for enlightenment. An evolving intelligence.
I have been inspired by Barry Long's teaching and I write this so as to acknowledge my source of inspiration. It is a wonderful help, and it is a wonderful gift.

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Re: What gets enlightened

Post by Ananda » Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:47 am

So could it be said that the Self produces a body of ignorance in order to know itself?
Not really. The body, and the universe no less, is like a phantom, neither real nor ultimately unreal- but instead a mere appearance in the Self- it has no meaning or independent existence in relation to the Self. In fact, in deep Self awareness the universe appearance is not even really there. The Self doesn't need the body or ignorance in order to know itself but nevertheless the subject-object relationship of subjective experience does arise in the waking and dream states :)

If I may adress your post to Vera;

Self = Being = the state of being = impersonal

self = ego = the human condition = emotional entity = thinking = mind

I = ? perhaps individual Consciousness appearing as a temporary Body
I is the same as Self, Being. It's impersonal, not individual. It appears individual when the mind projects I as an individual person (usually the body or mind, and sometimes as an independent spirit/ soul/ consciousness). All forms of individual personhood are merely projections of the mind identifying the Self as an object. There is only one Being in all of existence, and it is I, the Self of pure awareness.
If I am an individual consciousness not seperate from Self then that is my candidate for enlightenment.
I is wholely and not in part (individuality) the Self. It is the idea that you are anything but the absolute Self which is the cause of bondage, the removal of this ignorance by direct Self awareness is what constitutes enlightenment.


:D

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Re: What gets enlightened

Post by Sighclone » Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:37 am

Eckhart weighs in here in a March episode of Eckhart TV: http://eckharttolle.blip.tv/posts?view=archive&nsfw=dc

"Who becomes enlightened?" is an excerpt in the third row.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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