Presence's effect on motive

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Learner
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Presence's effect on motive

Post by Learner » Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:03 pm

Eckhart Tolle is right. Whenever I stop thinking and just focus on what's immediately around me, I have no "problems." But one question that's arisen to me on this is, this would work in any situation. So how do I know what I want to do??

In other words, I could be present in jail, the hospital, with little money, with a lot of money, being attacked, attacking someone, etc... I can be present as a doctor, police officer, firefighter, Marine, transportation worker, personal trainer, etc...

So without thought, what motivates me to choose a specific career path, not commit crime, etc...? What influences my choices? Scoiety is designed somewhat on thought. For example, people don't steal, attack each other, etc because they think it's bad or they think about how they could be in jail. But without this thinking, where's the motivation?

Can someone please clarify this for me? Thanks a lot.

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Kutso
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Re: Presence's effect on motive

Post by Kutso » Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:40 pm

What is the motive of a flower?
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

markallen
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Re: Presence's effect on motive

Post by markallen » Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:56 pm

This question has troubled me a great deal, and I have yet to find a satisfactory answer.

It seems to me that eastern philosophy/present moment awareness are philosophically antithetical to the modern western social value of motivation/ambition (I apologize if my choice of words creates confusion).

I have felt a hint of truth around the idea of cultivating present moment awareness as a foundation and handling practical matters with as little interference from the ego as possible. In other words: start from now and do what I need to do next to survive without investing in a new version of the story of me.

I haven't found a way to practice that in real life. I've been unemployed for three years as the result of an illness. The debt I now have and my lack of ability to engage in the commerce of life in America no longer trouble me, although it took a very long time to abandon that old story of me.

Unfortunately, I am in the odd position of facing possible jail time as a result of some of that debt. That started as an overwhelming threat, but my concern about that has faded as I become more aware of the present moment. I'll just be present in Jail if/when that happens.

I would prefer not to go to jail, and all I really need to do to avoid it is apply a little skill to seeking employment. And there is the rub...no matter how much I meditate or study or relax, I have not been able to look for work skillfully. The moment I open the paper or click on the link, I am immediately sucked out of the moment and pulled in to a spiral of doubts, fears, fantasies...everything but the peace of this moment.

I would love to hear of ways to maintain present moment awareness while doing "what needs done". If I am close to the truth above, can anyone expand on a way to practice without letting it become disruptive?

Sorry for hopping on the thread...this is an important topic and I want to thank you for bringing it up.

rememberrule6
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Re: Presence's effect on motive

Post by rememberrule6 » Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:16 am

And there is the rub...no matter how much I meditate or study or relax, I have not been able to look for work skillfully. The moment I open the paper or click on the link, I am immediately sucked out of the moment and pulled in to a spiral of doubts, fears, fantasies...everything but the peace of this moment.

You realize this is the ego. You've closed yourself off from the world because it's easier to stay present doing nothing, but is that really presence? This seems to me to be ego protection, holding onto the good feelings, making presence personal. Awareness isn't personal, it can't be held onto, and it can't be made into a goal, yet this is what you've done.

Try allowing the doubts, fears, and fantasies to be as they are. What happens when you just watch them? What happens when you just allow them to be there? What happens when you stop "thinking" that having these doubts, fears, and fantasies is "bad"? Stop turning yourself into a problem, that's just more ego.

Alternatively, meditate on what you're feeling. Ask yourself, "why is there doubt, fear, fantasy inside?" Question why it is that you've been unwilling to get a job? This is a great spiritual practice, and it's your spiritual practice, at least for now. As Tolle says presence isn't "how long you can sit with your eyes closed."

Try one these out and see if they work. I know they work for me. Through this process I find what works for me, what I'm "suppose" to be doing. Really I'm just aligning with life, allowing life to live me. "Life is the dancer and you are the dance."

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Re: Presence's effect on motive

Post by runstrails » Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:03 am

Nice post, rr6. However, many of the 'enlightened ones' (e.g., Jesus, Buddha, Ramana Maharishi) chose to leave the material world and lead a life in solitude, at least for a while, till complete realization/integration took place. Even Eckhart sat around on a park bench for two years. It is much easier, more peaceful and blissful to dwell in presence, as it were. However, the modern life does not allow this luxury. We could have a profound awakening and the next day or next hour, we have to find a job, or go to work or attend to the kids or whatever. But I do understand what you are saying about aligning with life. Its the only way.

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Re: Presence's effect on motive

Post by markallen » Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:01 am

I want to continue the conversation I started, but I feel that I should return this thread to it's original intent so I'll start a new thread.

To get back to the point, I read the response about the flower, and I find it a little confusing. Flowers never make a choice. They either flourish or perish based entirely on their environment. When you asked what motive a flower has, are you implying that we should aspire to be flower like, and does that mean we should accept our fates even if that means expiration?

More to the op point, a flower doesn't have to choose a vocation or make moral judgments. Human beings do not have that luxury. I fully believe that our minds unchallenged can be a terrible distraction from peace, but there are times when we actually have to use them.

To put it in ET terms, how did Tolle acquire food and eat while sitting on his park bench? When he got up, how did he decide what to do next? How did he acquire the resources?

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Kutso
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Re: Presence's effect on motive

Post by Kutso » Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:27 am

markallen wrote:To get back to the point, I read the response about the flower, and I find it a little confusing. Flowers never make a choice. They either flourish or perish based entirely on their environment.
Read your statement again, and really think about it. Do we make choices, or does things just happen? Do we make the choice to be born? Do we choose our parents? Do we choose how they bring us up, and therefor do we choose what kind of person we become and how we react to certain situations? And finally do we choose when we ourselves perish?
markallen wrote:and does that mean we should accept our fates even if that means expiration?
If this is our fate, does it really matter if we accept it or not?
markallen wrote:To put it in ET terms, how did Tolle acquire food and eat while sitting on his park bench? When he got up, how did he decide what to do next? How did he acquire the resources?
I would guess that the entity called Eckhart got hungry and went for food in some way. I would guess that he had some thoughts about what to do. But did he have power over the thoughts or did they just come to him by themselves because of the situation?
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

markallen
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Re: Presence's effect on motive

Post by markallen » Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:05 pm

Thank You.

pixiedust
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Re: Presence's effect on motive

Post by pixiedust » Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:17 am

Silly to get personal but Kutso sometimes I dont find your posts very helpful. You speak as though you know it all. Maybe offer suggestions that work for you but realise that just maybe you dont know the absolute truth of everything. I say this only for those who might take you as gospel.

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Re: Presence's effect on motive

Post by bottian » Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:53 am

Kutso, you say we don't choose when we perish, but that seems to me incorrect. We don't have a choice over whether we perish, but we have significant control over when it is that we perish depending on how we live.

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Re: Presence's effect on motive

Post by Kutso » Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:36 pm

pixiedust wrote:Silly to get personal but Kutso sometimes I dont find your posts very helpful. You speak as though you know it all. Maybe offer suggestions that work for you but realise that just maybe you dont know the absolute truth of everything. I say this only for those who might take you as gospel.
I say only what this mind has realized. If you don't find it helpful, then you don't find it helpful. About the absolute truth, the mind can never know it. How could a piece of the puzzle ever know the whole picture.
I thank you for your comment, and I am sorry that you get upset about my posts. However, this is how I write at this very moment.
Last edited by Kutso on Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

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Re: Presence's effect on motive

Post by Kutso » Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:40 pm

bottian wrote:Kutso, you say we don't choose when we perish, but that seems to me incorrect. We don't have a choice over whether we perish, but we have significant control over when it is that we perish depending on how we live.
Yes, this seems to be correct. It is however not. If you think about it, you don't choose to be born and you don't choose how your parents bring you up. Therefor your action in the present is based on what has happened before. If you choose to perish, you do so based on past experience, and therefor there really is no choosing at all.
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

Tara
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Re: Presence's effect on motive

Post by Tara » Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:58 pm

Kutso wrote:Read your statement again, and really think about it. Do we make choices, or does things just happen? Do we make the choice to be born? Do we choose our parents? Do we choose how they bring us up, and therefor do we choose what kind of person we become and how we react to certain situations? And finally do we choose when we ourselves perish?
I personally love reading all the different replys. Some resonate, some don't, and sometimes those that I can't make sense out of, now make sense :D

For the above I answered each question as I read it: being born, no, choosing parents, no, how they bring us up, no, to persih, no...BUT in between what kind of person we become and how we react...I still feel I "should" and I do try to be in control. Maybe I will "understand" this one day when I realize there is no "I"

randomguy
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Re: Presence's effect on motive

Post by randomguy » Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:12 am

> "Can someone please clarify this for me?"

Luckily for you, this is an adventure inward.

> "This would work in any situation, "

So, how about the situation where there is this moment with the experience of one wondering how to know what one wants to do?

> "so how do I know what I want to do?"

In silence, ask.
Find the stillness amid the chattering mind.
Can you really know that you are supposed to know what to do?
Stillness is the teacher of freedom.
It kindly answers with no thought of certainty for mind to cling to.
That is the freedom for mind.
What you really are, that is already free.

(Oh and by the way, it's firefighter. So enjoy driving the truck. I'm a little jealous of your job now.)
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

TheVastEmptiness
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Re: Presence's effect on motive

Post by TheVastEmptiness » Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:09 pm

Learner wrote:Eckhart Tolle is right. Whenever I stop thinking and just focus on what's immediately around me, I have no "problems." But one question that's arisen to me on this is, this would work in any situation. So how do I know what I want to do??

In other words, I could be present in jail, the hospital, with little money, with a lot of money, being attacked, attacking someone, etc... I can be present as a doctor, police officer, firefighter, Marine, transportation worker, personal trainer, etc...

So without thought, what motivates me to choose a specific career path, not commit crime, etc...? What influences my choices? Scoiety is designed somewhat on thought. For example, people don't steal, attack each other, etc because they think it's bad or they think about how they could be in jail. But without this thinking, where's the motivation?

Can someone please clarify this for me? Thanks a lot.
I don't know you are still in to this thread. But I want to mention that I also had the same problem once, but not about choosing the right career(as I'd already chosen my career) but about getting confused or taking decisions whenever I am available with choices. I not only had the problem of choosing the right choice(as perceived on the external level), but easily got into the thinking mind without the background awareness. When there is a background awareness when thought arises, I think, there won't be any problem in choosing the right one. All you need to do is write the pros and cons of each choice(on external level) and pick the right one(as perceived on the external level and even the selection may the based material benefits). But the point is to remain in the present moment as the awareness 'cause its your primary purpose. You can easily eliminate some of the choices by finding the ones which are motivated by the ego aided by the background awareness. But as far as your problem is concerned, it is very simple because you can choose the career which allows you to be in present easily(by speaking spiritually) or which flows easily for you or which make you feel you born for that. But the bottom line is once you realize that the forms are transient and you are not that, you can choose any and play with it like choosing the role in a skit or drama by knowing you are acting in the role not the role itself.

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