Identification with the Mind

This is the place to post whatever questions you have related to the teachings of Eckhart Tolle. The rest of us will do whatever we can to help you achieve a better understanding :)
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Post by a_friend » Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:07 am

I'm not sure this applies, but what the heck. When it comes to witnessing and creation (or manifestation or form), ET makes the analogy of the ripples on a deep body of water. The confusion and disappointment and chaos and all that kind of stuff comes when you see the ripples and identify with it and think that there's nothing else besides the ripples. When you are able to see the huge expanse underneath the ripples, then everything becomes very still and clear. In fact, the ripples may be so temporary as to appear illusory, and meaningless. But ultimately, the ripples and the expanse underneath are truly One.

I ask my friends, is this apple still red if I peel it? If i skin an apple and make a pie, you'd still call it an apple pie, right? But if i give you a pile of apple peels, you'd be like, what the heck is that?? And neither the apple's meat nor its skin can make another apple tree. But in the end, skin, meat, and seed are a Holy Trinity, and all make up the apple. And that's Good ;)

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Post by Anois » Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:09 pm

Hi Kiki,

I'm back in again through another door (must have a mind of my own!)

I accept that I am not the ego. I accept that I am that which is aware of the ego. I accept that I am being. I accept that I am awareness witnessing. I not only accept it, I feel it and know it to be true.

However as Columbo the detective used to say " Something bothers me " Is this the whole story ? You say that "Awareness is doing everything". If that be the case awareness should have some sense of creating as well as witnessing. Awareness should feel itself creating.

It seems like I have a very plush seat in the stalls but I don' t know who the producer is.

Seems like the ego is alive and well. !!

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Post by kiki » Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:55 am

anois wrote:If that be the case awareness should have some sense of creating as well as witnessing. Awareness should feel itself creating.
This is a viewpoint of an ego/mind - let all shoulds fall away. When that happens see if the question remains, and then see if it really matters if the question has an answer to it or not.

Ego/minds need answers - You do not. There is a difference between accepting the ideas as being true and the direct experience of resting within the natural state of awareness. Become familiar with that and see what happens. As you rest more and more in that state such questions no longer seem relevant, and then it becomes apparent how those questions simply keep ego/mind active and presence obscured.

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Post by heidi » Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:44 pm

There really are so many divine paradoxes, and the more present we become, the more eveident they are. I don't care if it's presence or ego that recognizes them - likely they are observed in presence and then named in mind. The playfulness of them is delightful to me.

Awareness is where creation takes place. It's often only after the fact that we realize where we've been, and it's a wonderful feeling to acknowledge it, mind-based or not :)
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Post by Anois » Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:53 pm

Thanks Kiki/ Heidi, I'm getting there slowly.

Despite my cries for help, I can, after many years of effort, rest in awareness for long periods and then as you say such questions do not arise, They do not arise because the mind is still. There is peace in that awareness. It is beyond the mind. It is independent of the mind. It is real and it always available. It is the basis, the background to life. I feel it and I know it.

HOWEVER !!, when mind clicks in again it asks the quesion, "is awareness the whole story" For example, electricity, like awareness, manifasts itself in many forms. However, electricity is created by a power station or such like. There is a source beyond the source so to speak. Can the same be said of awarenss. Is awareness created and if so by whom ?

Awareness is formless. It is what is left when we drop everything else. It is the source, but is it God ? Is it the whole story ? Is there an awareness watching awareness ?

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Post by heidi » Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:11 pm

Is there an awareness watching awareness ?
Yikes, the parallax view of consciousness! Chaos theory of presence :)

Just as time is an illusion, and the likelihood (or actual existence) of parallel nows, parallel universes, so too, awareness observes awareness. 8)
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Post by kiki » Sat Apr 02, 2005 12:29 am

anois wrote:Awareness is formless. It is what is left when we drop everything else. It is the source, but is it God ? Is it the whole story ? Is there an awareness watching awareness ?
Awareness is the basis for everything that exists, the foundation of all. It is 'no thing' and yet all things arise out of it. Awareness can't separate itself from itself in order to observe itself (what is there that it could see anyway and how could no-thing separate? Its unlimited potential expresses in manifestation as limited modification) - it simply is, and that 'isness' is Self-evident, Self-shining. It is the whole 'non-story' out of which all stories originate.

Some have called this God. Like Tolle says, however, this word 'God' carries with it a lot of baggage, because 'God' is a closed concept - mention the word and people have their set ideas what God is or isn't. Better to drop that concept entirely, or to use open-concepts which are harder to pin down because the mind can't grasp what they are; like 'being', awareness and so on.

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Post by summer » Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:05 am

The mind thinks in terms of concepts. It likes beginnings and endings. It asks questions like
Is awareness created and if so by whom ?
Interesting stuff, alright. Philosophy and metaphysics are certainly very interesting subjects to ponder. And yet awareness is perfectly content just being awareness :)

I like your analogy of electricity, Anois. Just look at all of the different gadgets that are fuelled by electricity. In one sense awareness is the electrical source, and the mind is one of its gadgets. Without awareness there would be no mind to wonder where awareness comes from. The mind cannot grasp its source because it is unlimited.

And still there is a deeper "knowing" within us that feels this Oneness with awareness :) It doesn't need any explanation. It is perfectly content with not trying to limit what it knows is unlimited.

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Post by Anois » Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:40 pm

Hi Kiki,

" It is the whole 'non-story' out of which all stories originate."

I accept all you say about being.
I know that being is what I am. I accept that questions do not arise in being.
I accept that everything is contained within being.

Nevertheless, having accepted who I am, the question arises as to "who is the creator".
Is Being the creator ?
Am I the creator ?

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Post by Anois » Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:22 pm

Hi again Kiki,

By chance I went to this website
http://www.mpeters.de/nisargadatta/index.cfm
and the second quote to pop up was

Whatever happens, happens to you, by you, through you; you are the creator, enjoyer and destroyer of all you perceive.
Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

I will have to work on this one!

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Post by kiki » Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:57 pm

Hi Anois,
Whatever happens, happens to you, by you, through you; you are the creator, enjoyer and destroyer of all you perceive.
Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
Glad you found this quote -
I will have to work on this one!
Go ahead and work on it, but remember, coming up with a definitive answer won't get you any closer to what you already are; the most that can happen is that the mind will be mollified, but only for a while, then it will come up with another question. When you 'catch yourself' in the act of questioning again there is freedom - that spaciousness that surrounds the question is You/awareness. Freedom will never come to the mind, no matter how many questions get answered.

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Post by heidi » Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:16 pm

Kiki - That is excellent advice :)
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Post by Anois » Fri Apr 08, 2005 1:27 am

Hi Kiki, Heidi,

Please forgive me if my posts appear to be argumentative. The fact is that I do "identify" with all that is being said here. I can "catch" the questions coming into my mind and I know that I am the one doing the catching.

As consciousness there is no desire to ask questions. Nevertheless the question still remains. "Who is doing the creating ? "If the mind is asking it then so be it. ?

The fact that consciousness by it's nature has little interest in the creation of the creation does not exclude the fact that it is being done. For example the sperm and the egg that created this human being here did not do so with consciousness just looking on. There has to be an active as well as a passive aspect to consciousness. As consciousness, I am not aware of the active part.

Can we say any more other then, we are other then the ego - the witness. Is it not egothistical to think we are more - the creator.

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Post by heidi » Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:24 am

Is it not egothistical to think we are more - the creator.
Actually, we are the creation and the creator, creation itself - the being, the isness. All is one. I see no ego in that. It seems very pure to me.
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Post by kiki » Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:43 pm

anois wrote:For example the sperm and the egg that created this human being here did not do so with consciousness just looking on. There has to be an active as well as a passive aspect to consciousness. As consciousness, I am not aware of the active part.
Perhaps your mind will respond to this: there is in India the idea of Shiva and Shakti. Shiva is the unmanifested consciousness - the witness. Shakti is the power by which Shiva moves in manifestation. To become enlightened is when Shakti is consciously reunited with Shiva. The fact that one isn't aware of this active Shakti doesn't mean it isn't there.

In my own experience, as life is lived more fully in presence, the near compulsive need to have answers to anything has evaporated. Am I the creator as well as the witness? It just no longer matters to me, although, if I allow myself to think about it that belief is there. For me, it's enough to live in the mystery of how it all happens.
Can we say any more other then, we are other then the ego - the witness. Is it not egothistical to think we are more - the creator.
If one remains identified with ego, then of course, that comes across as very egotistical, to THINK that we are the creator. But, you are not even the thinker - there is no 'me' which even thinks. Thoughts simply arise, they aren't owned by anyone.

From where does this need arise in you to have an answer? If there was a definitive answer would that then put an end to all future questions? Has there ever been an answer which extinguishes any and all future questions? If that were so, then all it would require to awaken would be to read or hear the key concept. My intent is not to disrespect your question, but rather, to point out the futility of providing a definitive answer (not that I, or anyone, has one).

Living your life on a day to day basis as the witness is enough. You have the basic understanding of nondualism; nothing more is needed other than living your life from the truth to which the concept of nondualism points.

kiki

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