Below Thought vs. Above Thought

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Rubber Soul
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Below Thought vs. Above Thought

Post by Rubber Soul » Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:12 pm

How does one know whether they are below thought (unconscious) or above it (conscious)?

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Ziendus
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Re: Below Thought vs. Above Thought

Post by Ziendus » Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:26 pm

Ones being here right now, does it depend on knowing which is above or below ?
---ooOoo---

arel
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Re: Below Thought vs. Above Thought

Post by arel » Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:06 pm

One knows when they are present vs when they are not.
What I say is only my viewpoint.

snowheight
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Re: Below Thought vs. Above Thought

Post by snowheight » Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:16 pm

arel wrote:One knows when they are present vs when they are not.
And then there is also the possible state of self-delusion when mis-identification is either overlooked, denied, suppressed, etc. etc.

Not disagreeing with what arel or ZD have said by any means.

The topic is similar to the question of the nature of deep, dreamless sleep. There are really great and insightful observations about that from both Tolle and Ananda kicking around somewhere ...
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.

arel
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Re: Below Thought vs. Above Thought

Post by arel » Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:08 pm

snowheight wrote:
arel wrote:One knows when they are present vs when they are not.
And then there is also the possible state of self-delusion when mis-identification is either overlooked, denied, suppressed, etc. etc.
Could you say more about what you mean?
What I say is only my viewpoint.

snowheight
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Re: Below Thought vs. Above Thought

Post by snowheight » Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:36 pm

arel wrote:
snowheight wrote:
arel wrote:One knows when they are present vs when they are not.
And then there is also the possible state of self-delusion when mis-identification is either overlooked, denied, suppressed, etc. etc.
Could you say more about what you mean?
Now, of this person, of course we can say that they are here and now (not that the person is at a place at a time but that the Here and Now is what is perceived as the apparent person), so the question boils down to whether or not they are mind projecting into the past or the future.

First off, before proceeding I just want to acknowledge that the statement "One knows when they are present" is an expression of the "Enlightened Person Paradox" -- there is no one to be enlightened -- this is to lay the context of just accepting this and talking about such a person as if they do exist ... this might seem a bit sophomoric of me, but if you want me to answer, felt I had to preface.

So when one is present, and they know this, there is no denying or arguing about that, it just is. As an interesting side question, an attempt can be made to communicate this, and whether or not such an attempt can be made, the presence or lack thereof may be perceived by some other apparent person ... but what is the likelihood of success of such perception by the other person?

There is the possibility, however, that someone has merely convinced themselves that they are present. Their mind is quiet on the surface, perhaps they are engaging in a specific practice such as concentrating their attention on something in nature or something mundane or they are meditating or they are specifically resolving not to project the mind ... but the mind is multi-threaded and can be subtle. There is this factor of the "unconscious mind" to consider ... or maybe the overlooked thread -- be it a worry about having left the door unlocked or wondering about where the youngest child is at that precise moment -- maybe that overlooked thread is running noisily and brazenly in the foreground and in the converse to the lack of threads on the emperor's bare behind, is stared right through by the apparent person in a trance that is outside of their recognition.

As far as knowing when one is not present, that is a common enough experience and sort of by definition forecloses the possibility of self-delusion about it.
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.

Rubber Soul
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Re: Below Thought vs. Above Thought

Post by Rubber Soul » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:49 pm

Ziendus wrote:Ones being here right now, does it depend on knowing which is above or below ?

I guess psychopaths are enlightened then. They are naturally below thought.

arel
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Re: Below Thought vs. Above Thought

Post by arel » Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:26 pm

Thanks for saying more snowheight. Yes paradoxes are everywhere, and I consider you a paradox specialist on this forum :) I do however always want to pick on something like "there is no one to be enlightened". This word "Enlightened", when I say it, I cringe a bit. I'm sure many can relate. It's loaded with meaning in my mind. Like "achievement, grandiose something, new-agey-better-then-others airy-fairy attitude". But it's just me. Now if you just take the English word and consider it in its simplicity, it means being "shined on", "pointed at", "spotlighted". I think that's the real meaning as how that word came about, describing the experience. And for me, it's not true to say there is no one or nothing to be enlightened. There certainly is. Watching attention, being mindful, perceiving the space of present moment, is putting a spot light ("enlightening") on oneself, on the simple fundamental of how everything has its existence.

As it relates to the runaway thoughts - when I am present the thoughts slow down, and when they flare up, they are seen. So here is a million dollar question: "are you enlightened when thoughts stop or thoughts stop when you are enlightened?"
There is the possibility, however, that someone has merely convinced themselves that they are present.
This is interesting. Yes if I focus on something, like a tree, I wouldn't necessarily call it as being present, but it's as close as it gets and is great practice. I'd say there is no presence without self awareness. I wander if that's what you mean.
Last edited by arel on Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
What I say is only my viewpoint.

snowheight
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Re: Below Thought vs. Above Thought

Post by snowheight » Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:35 pm

arel wrote: I think that's the real meaning as how that word came about, describing the experience. And for me, it's not true to say there is no one or nothing to be enlightened. There certainly is. Watching attention, being mindful, perceiving the space of present moment, is putting a spot light ("enlightening") on oneself, on the simple fundamental of how everything has its existence.
yes, yes ... what I wrote that paradox (as all writing about paradox) is just a meandering of mind ... when you start trying to (eventually unsuccessfully) apply these concepts to an individual it all just breaks down, and arguing against the practical application of the idea as you've outlined would be true sophistry.

What I meant by the original point is pretty simple ... it's just that sometimes we can fool ourselves.
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.

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Kutso
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Re: Below Thought vs. Above Thought

Post by Kutso » Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:24 am

Rubber Soul wrote:How does one know whether they are below thought (unconscious) or above it (conscious)?
What does even above and below thought mean? You are always conscious. Though you are not always conscious of thought.

I find the discussion about presence quite amusing. There is never a time that YOU are not present. There is only the idea of not being present that appears in the presence that is YOU. The same is true for the idea of being enlightened and not enlightened.
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

unbornawakened
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Re: Below Thought vs. Above Thought

Post by unbornawakened » Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:45 am

Rubber Soul wrote:How does one know whether they are below thought (unconscious) or above it (conscious)?
If you feel good, and can barely think even if you wanted to, you are 'unconscious' or 'below' according to ET. Usually this happens under the influence of alcohol and drugs ... but it can happen also when you are very tired and your brain is unable to function very much.

If you feel good, and your mental faculties are intact, yet you feel calm, peace, centeredness, and are not lost in thought (although you could be), you are above it. Everything seems vivid. You feel a serene kind of joy. You bask in the sun.
Last edited by unbornawakened on Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

arel
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Re: Below Thought vs. Above Thought

Post by arel » Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:23 pm

Kutso wrote: I find the discussion about presence quite amusing. There is never a time that YOU are not present. There is only the idea of not being present that appears in the presence that is YOU. The same is true for the idea of being enlightened and not enlightened.
What you say is true as a pointer to our true identity.

Now what do you think about ET talking about being present.. what is that all about? Or the mindfulness that many "teachings" talk about?
What I say is only my viewpoint.

snowheight
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Re: Below Thought vs. Above Thought

Post by snowheight » Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:47 pm

Kutso wrote:
Rubber Soul wrote:How does one know whether they are below thought (unconscious) or above it (conscious)?
What does even above and below thought mean? You are always conscious. Though you are not always conscious of thought.

I find the discussion about presence quite amusing. There is never a time that YOU are not present. There is only the idea of not being present that appears in the presence that is YOU. The same is true for the idea of being enlightened and not enlightened.
Thanks Kutso. As always, great clarity and stillness in the perspective.
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.

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Kutso
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Re: Below Thought vs. Above Thought

Post by Kutso » Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:30 pm

arel wrote:Now what do you think about ET talking about being present.. what is that all about?
I think it's misleading, that's what I think. I makes people think you have to remember to stay present all the time. That they have to do precence. How many times have we not had questions from people asking how they can be more present? Countless of times! But really, if you think back on your day, was there ever a time that you were not there perceiving experience? You are presence fully all the time!

Instead of saying 'stay present', say 'focus on that presence which you are'. Or as I prefer the best:

"This too is known by..." redirecting attention on the perciever.
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

snowheight
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Re: Below Thought vs. Above Thought

Post by snowheight » Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:31 pm

Rubber Soul wrote:
Ziendus wrote:Ones being here right now, does it depend on knowing which is above or below ?

I guess psychopaths are enlightened then. They are naturally below thought.
Not to speak for ZD, but this conclusion doesn't flow from his question. 'Soul, I infer that you took ZD's question to mean something like "a person can be 'below' conscious thought and still be present/enlightened/awake/whatever" ... do I have this right?
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.

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