''voice-voices in our heads''.....???

This is the place to post whatever questions you have related to the teachings of Eckhart Tolle. The rest of us will do whatever we can to help you achieve a better understanding :)
balancee
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:12 pm
Location: albania

''voice-voices in our heads''.....???

Post by balancee » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:05 am

I didnt know much about this voice in my head or voices until i read books from spiritual teachers like ET, or OSHO...ect...! They say observe, witness these voices but dont be part of them...what does this mean...they are not me ? They also say dont take them seriously...everyone who knows more about this theme can write their experiences here, thank u

User avatar
kiki
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4543
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:55 pm
Location: Wherever "here" happens to be

Re: ''voice-voices in our heads''.....???

Post by kiki » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:42 pm

The "voice in the head" is just another way of saying the stream of thinking going on in the mind. Most people identify with their thought stream, and have constructed a "me" out of it that is separate from all others. Spiritual teachers like ET and Osho challenge you to examine this assumption that they are who they think they are by looking for the me. Can you find it? Isn't there something that "sees" thought? What is the nature of that which sees thought? So what are you then, that which sees thought or a thought based identity?

People generally don't realize just how much their lives are dominated by thought because they are so entranced by thinking. But when something happens to change things up they might suddenly realize just how prevalent thoughts are; perhaps they learn how to meditate and desire to eliminate thoughts - that's usually an eye opener because they find that they have no control over their thoughts. Perhaps they hear someone like Osho or ET tell them they are not the ego, that the ego is a thought construct and that their true nature is that which "sees" thought. This causes a lot of confusion at first, which is just more thinking to get lost in.

The overwhelming number of people think they are the authors of their thoughts, but they find they cannot get rid of them when they want to. If people were the author of their thoughts it would be simply a matter of choosing which thoughts to have at any given moment, or to choose not to have thoughts at all. Isn't that the case with you right now? Can you control your thought stream? Can you choose what your next thought will be? Of course not, they just come. They come out of the life long conditioning of the mind - they are not "you".

The "you" that you think yourself to be is just more thought. "You" are constructed out of nothing more than closely held concepts/ideas and memories (all of which are thoughts themselves) that are kept alive as your identity through belief in them as the "me". In other words, this "me" is just another thought, and that's why the "me" cannot get rid of thought. I like to use this analogy to illustrate this: the "me" cannot get rid of thoughts in the same way that you cannot stand on a board and lift yourself off the ground.

So what's the solution? Discover that what you really are is the witness of thoughts. What is this witness, what "sees" thoughts come and go? That's what awakening is all about - when there is the awakening to your true nature your thought dominated existence slows down and eventually peters out. When you discover that You are the witness then thoughts begin to lose their grip on you. When you see that You are the witness then you begin to take thoughts less seriously. Identity with thought/me/ego then begins to dissolve all by itself and your life is lived more and more from the perspective of the silent, still, peaceful nature of the witness instead of the noisy, chattering, "voice in the head".
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
---

Ralph
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:08 am

Re: ''voice-voices in our heads''.....???

Post by Ralph » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:09 pm

Very well said, kiki, ...now , can we go deeper into this ?

Can the witness of thoughts be witnessed or to put it another way, can the seer of thoughts be seen ?

What is there prior to this seeing ?

User avatar
Midnight
Posts: 444
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:47 pm
Location: London

Re: ''voice-voices in our heads''.....???

Post by Midnight » Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:08 pm

kiki wrote: Discover that what you really are is the witness of thoughts. What is this witness, what "sees" thoughts come and go? That's what awakening is all about - when there is the awakening to your true nature your thought dominated existence slows down and eventually peters out. When you discover that You are the witness then thoughts begin to lose their grip on you. When you see that You are the witness then you begin to take thoughts less seriously. Identity with thought/me/ego then begins to dissolve all by itself and your life is lived more and more from the perspective of the silent, still, peaceful nature of the witness instead of the noisy, chattering, "voice in the head.
Kiki,

When I look inside, I find no me, just a void. Am I this void? If I am, then this surely is the most depressing discovery in life and perhaps we shouldn't be so quick to point people to the abyss, as it were.

I hope you don't take what I'm saying here as a direct challenge because it's not, it's just my honest experience.

Thoughts?

User avatar
kiki
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4543
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:55 pm
Location: Wherever "here" happens to be

Re: ''voice-voices in our heads''.....???

Post by kiki » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:44 pm

When I look inside, I find no me, just a void. Am I this void? If I am, then this surely is the most depressing discovery in life and perhaps we shouldn't be so quick to point people to the abyss, as it were.
Do not mistake the void for nonexistence. You (Your true reality) are not nonexistent; You simply are, but that "isness" is not a thing, not an object. Is there not an alertness, an awareness, a sense of simply existing present right now? Can that sense even be denied? That should tell you something about your actual reality, for to deny that you exist there must be something present that would alert you to that denial.

What is the nature of that which alerts you to the presence of anything? Isn't "that" unconditionally present? Isn't "that" inherently peaceful? Isn't "that" perfectly surrendered to all that arises? "That" is silent and still and ever present, and I find "that" incredibly life affirming because without "that" nothing else could possibly exist. Depressing notions only arise out of a certain perspective that is confined to thought/mind/ego. Perhaps the mind/ego is still looking for something to hang its hat on, to point at and say, "That's me", and in the failure to find it feelings of depression arise. The mind can take the discovery that the "me" doesn't exist and then turn that into another belief to identify with, and then a nihilistic viewpoint can grow and fester in the mind.

Beliefs can be very subtle and tricky, so it takes patience and perserverence to see them and recognize what's going on. If not seen they'll continue to drive those depressing notions. So those thoughts and feelings tell you you haven't gone deep enough in your enquiry by exposing those beliefs. Something still is being clung to, is being believed and identified with, and that happens only within the mind. So instead of dwelling on thoughts or feelings of not existing go deeper and rest knowingly in the silent peaceful stillness of true nature. Then those thoughts and feelings will dissolve all by themselves leaving you feeling free, open, and incredibly light and peaceful.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
---

the key master
Posts: 2078
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 4:23 pm

Re: ''voice-voices in our heads''.....???

Post by the key master » Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:52 am

Howdy Middy and kiki.
kiki said,
That should tell you something about your actual reality, for to deny that you exist there must be something present that would alert you to that denial.

And if there is something which is denying that you exist, that “some thing” cannot possibly be you. You aren’t actually doing anything. That mind thingamajig isn’t you.
What is the nature of that which alerts you to the presence of anything? Isn't "that" unconditionally present? Isn't "that" inherently peaceful? Isn't "that" perfectly surrendered to all that arises?
Right, but that’s not mind. Mind doesn’t get to be that. That isn’t experienced and nobody becomes that. And yet, it is the very essence of all you see before you.
"That" is silent and still and ever present, and I find "that" incredibly life affirming because without "that" nothing else could possibly exist. Depressing notions only arise out of a certain perspective that is confined to thought/mind/ego.
Life affirming thoughts also arise out of a certain perspective which is confined to thought/mind/ego. I’m just saying that maybe positive thinking isn’t the answer here, and may actually be part of the problem.
The mind can take the discovery that the "me" doesn't exist and then turn that into another belief to identify with, and then a nihilistic viewpoint can grow and fester in the mind.


In the same way, mind can take the discovery that nothing could exist without “that”, and turn that into another belief to identify with
So those thoughts and feelings tell you you haven't gone deep enough in your enquiry by exposing those beliefs. Something still is being clung to, is being believed and identified with, and that happens only within the mind.
Probably just mind believing that its mind while unconsciously believing that it isn’t. Who would have thought, all mind wants to do is be mind.
So instead of dwelling on thoughts or feelings of not existing go deeper and rest knowingly in the silent peaceful stillness of true nature. Then and those thoughts and feelings will dissolve all by themselves leaving you feeling free, open, and incredibly light and peaceful.
Maybe he doesn’t want to feel light and peaceful at the moment(i think its clear he doesnt). Maybe he doesn’t want to resist his thinking and “rest knowingly” in delusion. I don’t know about dissolving thoughts and feelings, but I know repressing them isn’t going to make them go away. I concur that mind “resolves itself” all by itself, but not when its being programmed to not resolve itself.

balancee
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:12 pm
Location: albania

Re: ''voice-voices in our heads''.....???

Post by balancee » Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:41 pm

Thanks to all of u that had written your thoughts here..but i see lots of ''words-game''.
To me there are two keys which i have descovered through my searching for more joy,peace and/or happiness, and they are : Intuition and Trust. I think trust in yourself and life is the bacis of all spiritual teachings, trust that this moment u are having is the best u can have right now, u may call it bad or depressed moment, but if your trust and have an open hart to accpet things with trust then u see the result. Intuition for me is like trusting my feelings, intuition in fact is more than just feelings, or thoughts..its a deep understanding that comes your my deeper core that shows me suddenly what is the best choise i can make...or what to do in a certain situation.

I think trust is the gratest of all, cause it brigns reconganiton, acceptance, surrender , joy, peace and LOVE, the grates of all life's gifts.

At least i see it this way.

User avatar
Midnight
Posts: 444
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:47 pm
Location: London

Re: ''voice-voices in our heads''.....???

Post by Midnight » Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:59 pm

the key master wrote:

Right, but that’s not mind. Mind doesn’t get to be that. That isn’t experienced and nobody becomes that. And yet, it is the very essence of all you see before you.
What are you refering to as mind? The stream of thinking?

the key master wrote: Life affirming thoughts also arise out of a certain perspective which is confined to thought/mind/ego. I’m just saying that maybe positive thinking isn’t the answer here, and may actually be part of the problem.
I haven't been practicing positive thinking. I struggle to think coherently, but out of interest how is it part of the problem?
The mind can take the discovery that the "me" doesn't exist and then turn that into another belief to identify with, and then a nihilistic viewpoint can grow and fester in the mind.
the key master wrote: In the same way, mind can take the discovery that nothing could exist without “that”, and turn that into another belief to identify with
How? I don't understand this.
the key master wrote:
Probably just mind believing that its mind while unconsciously believing that it isn’t. Who would have thought, all mind wants to do is be mind.
I'm now a bit more confused. Mind believes its mind while not believing it. Somethings being lost in translation here.
So instead of dwelling on thoughts or feelings of not existing go deeper and rest knowingly in the silent peaceful stillness of true nature. Then and those thoughts and feelings will dissolve all by themselves leaving you feeling free, open, and incredibly light and peaceful.
the key master wrote: Maybe he doesn’t want to feel light and peaceful at the moment(i think its clear he doesnt). Maybe he doesn’t want to resist his thinking and “rest knowingly” in delusion. I don’t know about dissolving thoughts and feelings, but I know repressing them isn’t going to make them go away. I concur that mind “resolves itself” all by itself, but not when its being programmed to not resolve itself.
Well I wouldn't mind feeling light and peaceful :)

magicbutterfly
Posts: 242
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:32 am

Re: ''voice-voices in our heads''.....???

Post by magicbutterfly » Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:14 pm

For me, this the easiest way of becoming present:
Become aware of your breathing. Feel the air flowing in and out of your body. Feel your inner energy field. All that you ever have to deal with, cope with, in real life - as opposed to imaginary mind projections - is this moment.

Ask yourself what "problem" you have right now, not next year, tomorrow, or five minutes from now. What is wrong with this moment? - PtPON pg. 51
The answer, the strength, the right action, or the resource will be there when you need it, not before, not after. - PTPON pg.51
"As soon as you honor the present moment, all unhappiness and struggle dissolve, and life begins to flow with joy and ease." Ekhart Tolle, The Power of Now

the key master
Posts: 2078
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 4:23 pm

Re: ''voice-voices in our heads''.....???

Post by the key master » Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:51 pm

What are you refering to as mind? The stream of thinking?
Um, the person who thinks that it’s thinking.
I haven't been practicing positive thinking. I struggle to think coherently, but out of interest how is it part of the problem?
Tell me what negative thinking is and why there is something wrong with it, and I’ll explain why positive thinking is more often than not mind deluding itself that its akchully choosing its thoughts which it isn’t. Mind splitting is the cause of suffering which is experienced (by mind) as resistance to itself. Positive thinking practices have nothing to do with closing mind splits or transcending mind, but in fact quite the opposite. Positive thinkers aren’t transcending thinking, their molding themselves into an ideal mind with an ideal experience, which will of course come to an end “at some point in time”. Why not now is the only question. It never gets old.
i said,
In the same way, mind can take the discovery that nothing could exist without “that”, and turn that into another belief to identify with

you said,
How? I don't understand this.”
Within the parameters of thought it can be recognized that what appears bounded (mind) only appears to be bounded because of its own imaginary boundaries. Boundaries keep truth out and delusion in, not the other way around. What transcends mind also transcends time. What “THAT” is, isn’t mind. I am not that. It’s not an object, and it’s not something “any person” has any experience with. IT transcends experience. Mind comes to believe it’s THAT by believing THAT can be experienced which it can’t. So how does that happen? Through spiritual practices and mind state cultivation, through believing freedom is a personal thing which it isn’t, by running from the fear of not having an experience to identify with, all fuelled by mind’s desire to hide from its own unconsciousness.
I'm now a bit more confused. Mind believes its mind while not believing it. Somethings being lost in translation here.
Mind can’t believe that “its not mind”, because the belief itself confirms the fact that mind believes that it is mind. There is no belief without a mind to believe it. Sometimes mind, or person, believes its awareness or something which transcends mind, or person. When these “contradicting beliefs” are held within consciousness, mind will remind itself of what it truly believes through what is sometimes called experience. It is the unconscious creation of bad experiences which no mind wants, and yet we could also say, it is the “bad experiences” which unconscious mind “clearly does want”. You clearly believe you are a person, yes? Does your experience not confirm that to you? Do you not uncontrollably emote as if you are a certain someone with a certain history? Are there not things which make you sad, which wouldn’t make someone else sad? What about preferences? Do you have those? Are those personal preferences or impersonal transcendent preferences? What does that tell you about what you, mind, believe about what you are? The question isn't why wou want to believe you are a person, but instead why you don't.

Karl, my south african friend from across the street, invited me over last night for “bunny chow”. A group of 10 heads from all over the world assembled into his studio apartment for what is apparently a big deally on the south african homefront. I was relieved to find out that bunny chow doesn’t actually include bunny meat, but rather, is a name given to the meal due to the way that its served. Basikly, you take a whole loaf of bread (unsliced), cut out a bunny hole in the top, burrow all the way to the bottom, fill it to the middle with curry, then add some funky pan fried chicken, then top it off with more curry. Kind of like a little tower or suttin. That shit was delicious, and a lot of fun to eat. Was a nice experience.

Some experiences aren’t so nice, which is why willingness to experience them isn’t always present. That’s what causes unconscious emotional energy to percolate, project, and distort, what causes consciousness to become unconscious of its own creation, what causes mind to seek control of its own spontaneous thinking, and what allows the process of closing mind splits to happen in the second place. All any mind is capable of doing is thinking however it wants to whenever it wants to. This is what everyone is doing.
Well I wouldn't mind feeling light and peaceful
I know what ya mean, but life isn’t always nice and peaceful. Sometimes everything isn't going to be alright. In fact, I would say this is the case at all times.

User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6331
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: ''voice-voices in our heads''.....???

Post by Sighclone » Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:29 pm

Lovely comment, kiki -- thanks very much.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

nightowl
Posts: 114
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:36 pm

Re: ''voice-voices in our heads''.....???

Post by nightowl » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:23 pm

kiki I just want to say all of your posts/pointers are so incredibly helpful. Been questioning that darn voice in my head...

Thank you.

User avatar
smiileyjen101
Posts: 3740
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:44 am

Re: ''voice-voices in our heads''.....???

Post by smiileyjen101 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:30 am

To me there are two keys which i have descovered through my searching for more joy,peace and/or happiness, and they are : Intuition and Trust. I think trust in yourself and life is the bacis of all spiritual teachings, trust that this moment u are having is the best u can have right now, u may call it bad or depressed moment, but if your trust and have an open hart to accpet things with trust then u see the result. Intuition for me is like trusting my feelings, intuition in fact is more than just feelings, or thoughts..its a deep understanding that comes your my deeper core that shows me suddenly what is the best choise i can make...or what to do in a certain situation.

I think trust is the gratest of all, cause it brigns reconganiton, acceptance, surrender , joy, peace and LOVE, the grates of all life's gifts.

Jesus spoke of Faith Hope and Love as three core human expressions. Some have interpreted faith to mean belief in something outside of our own intuition and maybe to think of hope as blind or fighting reality, but your usage of intuition and trust is (sigh) beautiful. I would like you to consider elevating love from a 'result' of using your intuition and trust, to a primary cause though. With love for all things (open to) you have the power source for your intuition and trust to grow. If these things were not fed with love, fear would fill the space and the result would likely be quite different.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
http://www.balancinginfluences.com

the key master
Posts: 2078
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 4:23 pm

Re: ''voice-voices in our heads''.....???

Post by the key master » Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:50 am

I thought kiki's post was total shit.

User avatar
ZenDrumming
Posts: 226
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:38 am

Re: ''voice-voices in our heads''.....???

Post by ZenDrumming » Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:37 am

magicbutterfly wrote:For me, this the easiest way of becoming present:
Become aware of your breathing. Feel the air flowing in and out of your body. Feel your inner energy field. All that you ever have to deal with, cope with, in real life - as opposed to imaginary mind projections - is this moment.

Ask yourself what "problem" you have right now, not next year, tomorrow, or five minutes from now. What is wrong with this moment? - PtPON pg. 51
The answer, the strength, the right action, or the resource will be there when you need it, not before, not after. - PTPON pg.51
Thanks for these reminders. I have actually been using a statement similar to the first one as a meditation before I sleep at night for a month or so. I didn't realize that I probably picked it up from PON.

Post Reply