Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Topics related to physical, emotional and psychological forms of pain and suffering

Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby Yutso » Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:47 am

WW.

What is it within you that understands connecting with awareness as a "good place to start", "a good base to keep in touch with" and yet somehow "living completely in neutral"?

I think you misunderstand emptiness. Conditioning and personal experience also arise out of emptiness. Same also with thoughts and emotions. It is emptiness that gives rise to the whole interconnected web of cause and effect.

I humbly admit, I could not make sense out of what constitutes "ever more unique experience". The inherent tools you are referring to based on previous posts would be emotions? Emotions are not an indicator of alignment with source. If so, why is it that we can find peace in the midst of negative emotions?
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Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby Webwanderer » Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:32 am

Yutso wrote:I think you misunderstand emptiness.

That is certainly a possibility. I am eager to gain more clarity on the subject. What have you got to offer?

I humbly admit, I could not make sense out of what constitutes "ever more unique experience".

Any new experience is unique to the one experiencing it - at least in comparison to one's own previous history of experience. As consciousness grows, develops, and evolves from infancy to senior citizen, our perspective on life changes as well. With the change in perspective that comes with more and more experience, that experience continues to change with the choices we make and the life lessons we learn. Thus "ever more uniqueness".
The inherent tools you are referring to based on previous posts would be emotions?

Yes, in that they are indicators within experience.

Emotions are not an indicator of alignment with source. If so, why is it that we can find peace in the midst of negative emotions?


Not every one can in their current perspective of who they are. It is a learned skill - or at least a recalled one. Once it is recognized that emotions are content within awareness, and not as aspects of identity, they can be seen as arbiters of the thoughts that generated the emotion, and one may then consider the quality of vibratory alignment with one's True Nature.

and yet somehow "living completely in neutral"?

Your statement:
"We just need to recognize right here in the present moment that we are the knower of whatever arises."
...suggests that 'we' are a static element in spontaneously arising experiences that we have no real input into its creation. That is my reference to living in neutral. The alternative is to take responsibility for co-creating the experience we have and actively engage it based on its quality and feel.

That does not take away or detract from our essential nature as awareness. It simply recognizes the dimension of focus and intentional interaction.

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Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby rideforever » Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:56 am

Yutso wrote:Thoughts, emotions, sense perceptions, experiences arise out of emptiness/awareness rather then vice versa. I would encourage you to just connect with the vast spaciousness of awareness which doesn't get any better or worse no matter the externals.

Do you know about Vajrayana ? These use emotions ... what the intention of that is I can't say ... but something about the practices allows you to 'go deeper'.

For instance without creation there would be no appreciation of emptiness; it is the real reflected in the unreal. And so perhaps you can say that a deeper appreciation of the unreal gives a deeper appreciation of the real.

In any case that's what Padmasambhava was doing.

You say it doesn't get any better or worse ... but it does. For instance a beginning meditator might stumble upon this space but after a few years experience it very deeply ... a change has occurred.

What is that change ? Well the emptiness is the same but the meditator is not.

"why is it that we can find peace in the midst of negative emotions?"

Because you are identified with them. But if there comes a time when you are not ... then you can revisit emotions and do some work with them.

As for LoA alignment ... hmm ... well it's worth a shot, but clearly a lot of people who use it are fantasising.
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Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby Yutso » Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:11 pm

When the German dictator was winning WW2 and experienced positive emotions were the emotions then an indicator that he was aligned with source due to some sort of a vibratory alignment with his true nature?
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Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby Webwanderer » Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:53 pm

Yutso wrote:When the German dictator was winning WW2 and experienced positive emotions were the emotions then an indicator that he was aligned with source due to some sort of a vibratory alignment with his true nature?

Are you certain of what said dictator was actually feeling? That's speculation at best. The man was on drugs after all - it's well documented that he took daily injections of methamphetamine. If he needed such a strong drug boost, it certainly suggests that what he was actually feeling was far different from his outward appearances. We all know that outward expressions don't always indicate what one is actually feeling inside.

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Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby Yutso » Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:11 pm

I think you are misunderstanding history. Wasn't he on drugs when he started losing the war?
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Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby rideforever » Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:33 pm

When you are Conscious there is no pain.

So what is happening is continued identification with the ego.

Not sure which technique you are using, but you might try another approach like feeling love in the heart or feeling the white light within you.
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Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby Webwanderer » Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:35 pm

Yutso wrote:I think you are misunderstanding history. Wasn't he on drugs when he started losing the war?

According to his personal doctor's records, by 1942 when the war had begun to turn, he was taking methamphetamine injections daily and more. It seems likely that he didn't start on multiple daily injections but had to work up to them over a much longer period of time. The Battle of Stalingrad, arguably the turning point of the war, happened between Aug 1942 until Feb 1943. Up until this time the Germans were mostly in command of the war.

Also consider, that Hitler was injured twice in WW1 - once from shrapnel to his leg that took him off the front for nearly 4 months of rehab, and later from a gas attack that ended his participation until Germany surrendered. Like many injured vets, they tend to have government access to drugs to deal with the lingering effects of their injuries.

This is getting a bit off topic to discuss Hitler's drug use, and his emotional state, of which we can never say for certain.

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Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby Yutso » Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:58 pm

Please understand that I am just trying to help you. Many humans throughout history have committed actions which were the the moral inverse of compassion and have done so out of positive emotions.

It is not your fault for holding wrong view that emotions are an indicator of alignment with source. You are not to blame. You were just exposed to wrong view and without enough direct experience of emptiness/awareness/compassion it is easy to mistake egoic thought forms as indicators for the deeper reality.

Now if you were to say compassion is an indicator of alignment with source then you would be on to something more real and substantial.
Have you not felt deep compassion rising within you in the midst of negative emotions? How is it that you could show yourself kindness in that moment? How is it that you could show yourself the compassion that you needed?

If emotions are an indicator of alignment with source then are also thoughts and physical health?
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Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby Webwanderer » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:16 am

Yutso wrote:Please understand that I am just trying to help you. Many humans throughout history have committed actions which were the the moral inverse of compassion and have done so out of positive emotions.

Thanks for looking out for my best interests. You're certainly not the first to see the error of my ways. Somehow however, I continue to survive quite happily. :D

I'm never depressed (Hasn't always been this way.), I rarely get angry and never stay down more than a couple of hours before regaining my clarity. (Life still manifests a few interesting challenges to consider.) That emotional guidance mechanism I point to works quite well when clearly understood. So, considering the effectiveness in my approach to managing my life experience, what would you help me accomplish?

It is not your fault for holding wrong view that emotions are an indicator of alignment with source. You are not to blame. You were just exposed to wrong view and without enough direct experience of emptiness/awareness/compassion it is easy to mistake egoic thought forms as indicators for the deeper reality.

If it's not my 'fault' (actualization to be more accurate), then who's is it? Do I not make my own choices in what I consider most likely true? It doesn't seem particularly helpful to blame others for our own choices.

Now if you were to say compassion is an indicator of alignment with source then you would be on to something more real and substantial.

Is compassion not a feeling, a type of emotion?

Understand that when I suggest that depression or anger is an indicator of one's quality of alignment, I'm not saying
depression and anger indicates one is in alignment. I'm saying the type of emotion is a measure of the degree of one's alignment, of which depression is about as far out of alignment as one can get. To feel depression says "whoa, this awful feeling is telling me that this is not who I truly am. What am I thinking/perceiving that brings this experience?".

To feel love and joy and appreciation, is telling me, "this is much more like my essential nature and the nature of Source Consciousness. What am I thinking/perceiving that brings me to this clarity?". Perfect harmony, complete disharmony, or somewhere in between, emotions indicate where consciousness is focused.

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Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby Yutso » Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:41 pm

If emotions are an indicator of alignment with source then are also thoughts and physical health indicators of alignment with source?
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Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby Webwanderer » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:06 am

Yutso wrote:If emotions are an indicator of alignment with source then are also thoughts and physical health indicators of alignment with source?

A fair question.

My sense is that they are not indicators as guides in the same way as are emotions, but more of a manifestation of experience.

Thoughts are more a manifestation of beliefs as well as the creators of beliefs. Think in a certain way long enough and it becomes an entrenched belief from which similar thought arises spontaneously. It is a conditioning that creates experience. For example, how long can one think they are worthless before it becomes a self-sustaining belief that becomes an experience of being? Emotions are more in your face with experiential feeling than cold justifying and judgmental logic.

The emotions that accompany our painful experience that are the indicators of that experience, as well as the thinking that helped create it, are clear demonstrations of not being in harmony with one's true nature - unlike thought alone that is more easily rationalized. Recognizing this emotional message, offers the opportunity to begin thinking in new ways that are more in keeping with harmony. If however, one believes there is nothing to the possibility that emotions can help us return to harmony, then it will not be seen and the prevailing experience will likely continue.

Health issues can be quite different. No one gets out of this physical experience without a bodily death, so eventually the body will fail. We are after all here only temporarily. On the other hand health issues can tell us a lot about our perspective on life. As eternal beings all experience is valuable, so who can say what purpose a given health condition may serve in the form of life experience.

Emotions, however will tell us how well we are engaged with whatever experience we have.

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Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby rideforever » Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:53 am

Wow, what a load of waffle.
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Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby treasuretheday » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:14 pm

Syrup, anyone? Make room on your plate-

Thoughts precede feelings. We first have a horrible thought. We entertain it, feed it, nurture it, then feel miserable. Sometimes just a fleeting thought is enough to do us in. We quickly feel the effects! But the good news is, It is easier to control our physical behavior than change our feelings out of horribleness.

Physical behavior includes choosing what we think . Thinking "row, row, your boat" may not be great philosophy, but it can momentarily stop us from thinking about how bad we feel. Every small thing we do other than thinking about how bad we feel, lessens how bad we feel. Little by little we can act and think ourselves into a better place than despair. Take a deep breath. You are not alone. Even looking out the window can broaden your outlook just a little.
Webwanderer wrote: Recognizing this emotional message, offers the opportunity to begin thinking in new ways
And, if one is not at ease with the idea that thoughts/feelings can be in or out of alignment with "source," how about the notion that thoughts & their subsequent feelings are rooted in either fear or love?

"I'm a loser!" is a fear-based thought. "All is well" is rooted in love, in saying "yes" to life. One could say that fear-based thoughts are born of the egoic mind. Love-based ones originate from our True Self. The degree to which we are entrenched in egoic thoughts is the degree to which we will experience feelings of negativity, anxiety, & all forms of misery. The degree to which we entertain thoughts that stem from the True Self, we feel uplifted, energized and at peace.
Webwanderer wrote:who can say what purpose a given health condition may serve in the form of life experience.
Such wisdom! A Chinese proverb, probably attributable to Confucius, insisted: One should not miss the flavor of being sick, nor miss the experience of being destitute. The flavor of being sick, the experience of being destitute, are seen as fertile soil for growth, as valuable and meaningful, rather than obstacles to the "good" life to be avoided at all costs!
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Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby rideforever » Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:10 pm

treasuretheday wrote:
Webwanderer wrote:who can say what purpose a given health condition may serve in the form of life experience.
Such wisdom! A Chinese proverb, probably attributable to Confucius, insisted: One should not miss the flavor of being sick, nor miss the experience of being destitute. The flavor of being sick, the experience of being destitute, are seen as fertile soil for growth, as valuable and meaningful, rather than obstacles to the "good" life to be avoided at all costs!

And by the same rationale any thoughts are justified. If any illness is ok, then why not any thought ?
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