Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Topics related to physical, emotional and psychological forms of pain and suffering

Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby Webwanderer » Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:46 pm

rideforever wrote:And by the same rationale any thoughts are justified. If any illness is ok, then why not any thought ?

Any thoughts are okay. They just lead to different experiences and different opportunities (especially for those who see them as such). That's the nature of the gift of freedom. We can explore even those choices that lead to pain.

Every experience has the potential to teach us something of the nature of being and can lead to an expansion of consciousness. It's just reality that some lines of exploration lead through a path of pain and suffering. That that does not however, preclude their potential value in revealing something of a deeper understanding of life. The experience of painful emotions is so endemic to the human experience, it suggests that it is a key component to growth in this environment.

To the degree we are not willing to look for value in our painful experience, it will likely just get stronger until it gets our deeper, more fundamental attention. Ask Tolle. Was this not his experience until he finally asked "who is this me that I cannot live with anymore?" Pain finally got him to look at his experience in a way that was life changing and consciousness expanding. That same potential is available to most all of us.

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Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby rideforever » Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:20 pm

Sure ... but that's not really the question is it.

The question is why pay attention to emotions ? Why follow positive emotions ?

It is fine to say you don't know.
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Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby Webwanderer » Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:05 pm

rideforever wrote:Sure ... but that's not really the question is it.

It was in response to the question you asked. "If any illness is ok, then why not any thought ?"

The question is why pay attention to emotions ? Why follow positive emotions ?

It is fine to say you don't know.

I'm not sure how I could have been more clear. Maybe a re-read of my comments in this thread, and some others relating to this subject, would be helpful.

And it's equally fine to just say you don't agree. We really don't have to you know. There is more than one path to clarity. Simply because one sees another way more clearly does not mean the other is wrong.

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Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby treasuretheday » Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:32 pm

rideforever wrote:And by the same rationale any thoughts are justified. If any illness is ok, then why not any thought ?

There is a huge difference between illness and thought. Illness arrives unbidden. Thoughts, we are very much in control of. My interpretation of the proverb is not only that the unbidden events of life such as illness are "okay," but that they can be supremely enriching if we invite that richness in. Our experience of life is in our hands, even if the events of our life are not.
rideforever wrote:why pay attention to emotions ? Why follow positive emotions ?

Why does the alchemist turn lead into gold? Because he can? Because it is satisfying? Could the process of transformation be our nature? Life after all is never static, it is always in flux. We are propelled toward a continual morphing of energy. We can experience joy during the ebb and flow that occurs if we so choose. So why not choose to?
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Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby rideforever » Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:39 pm

treasuretheday wrote:
rideforever wrote:And by the same rationale any thoughts are justified. If any illness is ok, then why not any thought ?

There is a huge difference between illness and thought. Illness arrives unbidden. Thoughts, we are very much in control of. My interpretation of the proverb is not only that the unbidden events of life such as illness are "okay," but that they can be supremely enriching if we invite that richness in. Our experience of life is in our hands, even if the events of our life are not.
rideforever wrote:why pay attention to emotions ? Why follow positive emotions ?

Why does the alchemist turn lead into gold? Because he can? Because it is satisfying? Could the process of transformation be our nature? Life after all is never static, it is always in flux. Maybe we can't help ourselves. We are propelled toward a continual morphing of energy. We can experience joy during the ebb and flow that occurs if we so choose. So why not choose to?

In what way is Illness unbidden ? People's lifestyles and the way they run the planet cause the majority if not all illness.

Thoughts are bidden ? People do not choose what they think. It's not like people say "I will now think about being hungry". No, it just happens. It's not like you are beating your heart either, you don't say "Beat .... Beat ... Beat....". No, it just happens.

It amounts to the great unconsciousness of human life.

Now the pertinent question that Yutso was pointing to is, in this mess why choose to follow Positive Emotions as an indicator of the Truth or a way out.

You saw the Alchemist turns Lead into Gold. Sounds great. But how does one know which is Lead and which is Gold.

Why don't you follow Negative Emotions ?

Why don't you follow your thoughts ?

Why don't you follow your ego ?

Do you TTD or WW have a coherent answer to this ? I am interested if you have an answer.
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Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby treasuretheday » Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:06 pm

Is hunger a thought?

Yes, I hear you...thoughts may arrive unbidden, but we can decisively choose to counter them right in their tracks. In my earlier example, saying, "I'm a loser" is going to be supported by continuing negative thoughts or can be supplanted with, "all is well." There are a plethora of subjects toward which I can direct my thinking other than, "what a loser I am."
rideforever wrote:In what way is Illness unbidden ? People's lifestyles and the way they run the planet cause the majority if not all illness.

Well, if you adhere entirely to the medical model of illness, I suppose that could be--we "ask for it!" The prima facie evidence suggests that if we eat right, exercise & meditate, we will encounter little ilness. But it doesn't work out that way in a large number of cases. I think life is far more mysterious. Why do some people who smoke all their lives never get lung cancer, while many who have never smoked get the disease and die from it? There are people who consume all manner of artery clogging food who never have a heart attack. Some very fit individuals drop dead while they are jogging!

As far as providing coherent answers...coherence is in the eye of the beholder!
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Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby Webwanderer » Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:27 pm

rideforever wrote:Why don't you follow Negative Emotions ?

Why don't you follow your thoughts ?

Why don't you follow your ego ?

What is the relevance of these questions as related to this discussion?

Who is the 'you' you refer to? Me or people in general?

People do follow negative emotions - and get more negative experience as a result.

People do follow thoughts - and often become identified with them.

People don't so much follow ego as become, at least experientially, identified with that egoic identity.

Do you TTD or WW have a coherent answer to this ? I am interested if you have an answer.

It's highly unlikely that TTD or myself will have any satisfactory answers for you. Your resistance to what is offered is far too strong. It seems you have already rejected what was pointed to, and we are now at a point where genuine exploration of possibilities is not your goal. Am I wrong?

If however, you truly want coherent answers, ask coherent (and honest) questions. You asked one question, apparently didn't like the answer offered, and then resorted to asking 'the real question'. Now you ask a bunch of vague questions that are nearly indecipherable in the context of what is written in this thread and then project your own incoherency onto those you seem not to make an effort to understand.

Isn't this just a waste of time? What do you seek to expose? Why bother? I'm not looking for stated answers to these questions, just your consideration of them.

Again we don't have to agree. You are welcome to find your own way to whatever version of reality that suits you. May its pursuit truly serve you well.

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Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby rideforever » Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:30 pm

treasuretheday wrote:Yes, I hear you...thoughts may arrive unbidden, but we can decisively choose to counter them right in their tracks. In my earlier example, saying, "I'm a loser" is going to be supported by continuing negative thoughts or can be supplanted with, "all is well."

In this case for example, how do you know all is well ?

Yes, it will have the effect of calming you down, but perhaps you are about to be run over - maybe you shouldn't be calm. Do you see what I mean.

You can "all is well" over and over - maybe it's not. How do you know ?

It seems to me that a better way to approach it is to become present to whatever is occurring, thought, emotion ... to make no distinction. To not say "all is well" ... because this just makes it spin even faster.

To begin with accepting that you don't "all is well".

As for following "Positive Emotions" ... that seems very questionable. Before you follow them you need to know what they are and if they are reliable.
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Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby Yutso » Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:13 am

Emotions are not an indicator with alignment with source. The degree to which one (does or does not) invest a sense of self in the emotions are an indicator of alignment with source.
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Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby treasuretheday » Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:33 pm

rideforever wrote: perhaps you are about to be run over - maybe you shouldn't be calm
If life calls upon me to face a "crisis" situation, facing it calmly will allow me to respond mindfully, rather than reactively. If there is panic or upset in that moment, I am not suggesting that is wrong or bad either.

I am not talking about how one responds in a crisis though, I am talking about the garden variety complaints and negativity, the blaming & shaming, the "life stinks & I stink" thinking that dots the inner landscape of so many people. There is inner dialogue that makes war and stirs up unneccesary pain. Hence my example of the thought, "I am a loser." Wouldn't you agree that such thoughts run rampant in many a human mind? Tolle writes in ANE, "External reality, which always reflects back to you your inner state is then experienced as hostile."

rideforever wrote:how do you know all is well ?
All is well! That is a declaration of acceptance, rather than a declaration of war. Trusting life, and in the Intelligence that is guiding us all, directs me to the thought, "all is well." Fear and the egoic mind direct me to conclude otherwise. I am referring to negativity that I suppose could be generated by the "pain body." Is that voice wise and trustworthy? Are we required by some mandate to stay stuck in its life-draining grip?

Again, in ANE, Tolle asserts, "Form means limitation. We are here not only to experience limitation, but also to grow in consciousness by going beyond limitation." Also, "Unhappiness or negativity is a disease on our planet. What pollution is on the outer level is negativity on the inner. It is everywhere, not just in places where people don't have enough, but even more so where they have more than enough."

rideforever wrote:become present to whatever is occurring, thought, emotion ... to make no distinction
Presence to "what is" is essential. Acceptance of "what is," is essential. Concluding that "what is" is negative and awful and horrible and hostile, is optional. (I also understand that you are not suggesting that it is wise to draw such conclusions either!). Maybe you are a person who has a perpetually inactive pain body. You stay in "neutral" and don't have the "negativity disease" Tolle speaks about. You, unlike so many walking the planet, are not at war, you are at peace. You are not making life however it shows up, into an enemy. Enjoy! :)
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Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby Yutso » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:21 pm

Emotions are not indicators of alignment with source. The extent to which a sense of self is invested in emotions are indicators of alignment with source.
Humans have throughout history invested a sense of self in positive emotions and sowed narcissistic havoc upon others in the name of good.
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Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby Webwanderer » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:29 pm

Yutso wrote:Emotions are not indicators of alignment with source.

If it turned out to be true, that emotions are such indicators, would you be okay with it?

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Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby Yutso » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:50 pm

Never an issue because emotions are not an indicator of alignment with source.

What remains when one no longer invests a sense of self in emotions, thoughts, sense perceptions, and experiences, is alignment with source.
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Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby rideforever » Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:09 pm

Indeed.

You are not your body, you are not your thoughts, you are not your emotions ... so whoever is aligning whatever emotions with whatever principle ... is not waking up to their real identity ... but massaging the ripples.

Certainly negative emotions sap a lot of strength. So if by alignment (and of course these people are totally vague) you mean willing the end of negative emotions ... then that will improve your happiness.

What does "alignment" mean. Cue vagueness. Do people think they are choosing which emotions are in them ? Are you saying ... "and now I will feel joy" ... "and now I will feel sadness" ...

I don't think so.

But still means you are identified with your emotions ... in other words you feel your emotions are part of your identity.

Ultimately lazy people who put no effort in to their waking up want to "feel good". In the same way people who don't want to make the effort to work on themselves want to "help other people".

The reason people continue in this way is that they have not come to investigate whether they are awake - they do not comprehend the depth of their unconsciousness.

People take for granted they are awake - they would be shocked if they took a closer look ...

Anyway there are many ways to work with your emotions that can lead to your awakening but they come with quite robust instructions see the Vajrayana.

But what LoA is is a rolling about in a vague sense of "feeling" something bla bla bla

And perhaps that is the best some people can do. But you do yourself no credit to follow such these dreamy American charlatans ... this is the reason the Christian church is such a disaster at the moment - it become about promising a fast route to "feeling good" ... and anything significant in it vanished.

I would advise people to make more effort to investigate themselves and be on the guard against their own laziness and sleepiness; and if you aren't prepared to make some effort ... what is it you think you will gain ?
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Re: Being Conscious is Causing Me More Pain

Postby Webwanderer » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:43 pm

Yutso wrote:
Webwanderer wrote:
Yutso wrote:Emotions are not indicators of alignment with source.

If it turned out to be true, that emotions are such indicators, would you be okay with it?

Never an issue because emotions are not an indicator of alignment with source.

This reveals much. Do we follow where truth leads regardless of what we believe, or do we decide what truth is and just repeat it until we can see no other possibilities?

rideforever wrote:You are not your body, you are not your thoughts, you are not your emotions ... so whoever is aligning whatever emotions with whatever principle ... is not waking up to their real identity

Snippets of truth here inside a strawman, but has nothing to do with the discussion. Who said 'you are your body', 'you are your thoughts', or 'you are you emotions'? Any argument based on the assumption that these were elements of the discussion is irrelevant as it is based on a false premiss.

If you're going to alter information or create false premisses within the discussion so it strengthens your point of view, it makes it not worth having.

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