Relapse from being Present

Topics related to physical, emotional and psychological forms of pain and suffering

Relapse from being Present

Postby Matt123 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:22 am

Dear All,

I have been reading a lot the past few months and am enjoying the "present" moments and I feel much more closer to my true self than before. However the past couple of days, I had a sort of relapse. I had a situation which is about something that is yet to happen. My mind suddenly went into a "hanging" mode similar to Windows XP of the computers and kept dreaming about various scary thoughts. It was very painful as my "mind" just refused to sit still and kept going back to various "what-ifs"..... I know from all my teachings that this is just another dream within the dream and just another life situation and present is the only moment etc... and my "mind" also knows this. But the thought just refused to leave me for 2 days. I tried being still, tried out-thinking my mind , tried reading stuff...and this all helped a bit. And after 2 days, the situation remains the same, but my mind is calmer and back to old self and the thoughts have vanished. This has happened to me frequently in the past too, where situation does not change, but my mind calms down after a while and after a big fight and it is able to look at the same thing in clearer way...and all that pain seems so wasteful afterwards.

I hope this is making sense. I wanted to hear from others ,if there are any techniques to QUICKLY go back to the true self. And avoid this battle that I had to fight for 2 days. I wish I had had a zen master to beat me with a stick but all I had were the teachings....
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Re: Relapse from being Present

Postby Naviy Pokoy » Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:59 am

It seems to me that having no thoughts has nothing to do with being your true self. I think you just should stop struggling with the fact that you have thoughts, that's all. Fully allow all the thoughts to be, no matter how many of them appear, just look at them. Probably, you do not really want to do it, but why not just try it? Practice it for a week, for example? The fact that you are struggling is giving you discomfort, not the thoughts themselves. All thoughts are neutral when you do not color them with your attitude to them (just as all other things and events).

Your experience of having no thoughts was just a state of mind that you witnessed. And having thoughts is just another state of mind. And you are not the mind, so does it really matter what state of mind YOU currently see? When you are trying to change the state of mind, your attention is being dragged by it too much, so because of this "wanting to change" you cannot see your real self and feel discomfort. Not because of the thoughts themselves.

(Well, while writing this, I actually think "how it's easy to say this and how it's difficult to practice it really" :))
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Re: Relapse from being Present

Postby Onceler » Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:26 pm

I'm not a Zen master, but....BANG. I just hit you with a virtual stick! It sounds like you figured it out. You don't need a master or a teaching. You paid attention to painful phenomena, stayed present and aware, didn't try to avoid the thought or retreat into a cocoon, didnt inflict others or blame others for your pain, and let it run its course. This is what any sane person would do.
Be present, be pleasant.
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Re: Relapse from being Present

Postby tod » Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:02 pm

Matt, following on from what Onceler has said, there is no need to fight the mind; you just watch thoughts and feelings and they pass sooner or later.

What goes in to wrestle with thought is thought in the form of who-you-imagine-yourself-to-be. Wrestling with thought only makes it hang around longer.

Of course it is difficult to stay out of the mind when emotions are high, but the trick is to try and catch yourself going into thought before emotion fires up. As you may well know, going into thoughts about yourself is what fires them up.

This does not mean not to use thought, but just not to go into it to define yourself - unless you are conscious of what you are doing.

With best wishes...
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Re: Relapse from being Present

Postby jimmyrich » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:49 am

I don't give lecturers if I can help it so here's my own experience in this issue..........
Matt123 wrote:I wanted to hear from others ,if there are any techniques to QUICKLY go back to the true self. And avoid this battle that I had to fight for 2 days. I wish I had had a zen master to beat me with a stick but all I had were the teachings....
My current tactic for getting back to my Real Self and out of mind dramas is to use the Ramana Maharshi method where I ask my self: "Who am I?", whenever I forget my True identity or am under stress.
If I ask Who am I?, I come up with = this egoic, little, personal me - or "THIS" (which is the impersonal, divine ME) at which time the "problem" dissolves. If it's a bothersome thought, I might ask my self: For whom is this thought or Who is having this issue, etc.? An answer might be: Me! I am having these thoughts, feelings, experiences, etc.
Then I ask my self: Who or what is this "me" or "I" who is under attack, etc.? At that point my attention goes to either my little, suffering, unhappy me or it goes to "THIS" (the real indescribable ME/SELF/OBSERVER or however you might experience "THIS"/"THAT") - and then the problem or bad feeling dissolves! If I sense that the little, personal me is still having issues, I might continue to ask Who am I? until I realize that I am not and never was this struggling little me at all and the "problem" instantly dissolves.

Using the ET method, I can observe/watch my thought/thoughts until I sense that I am something (the Observer) separate from yet observing my thoughts "over there" at which time I remember or become ME/THIS/ALL/NOTHING/THAT/SELF/OBSERVER/WITNESS/ABSOLUTE SELF/DIVINITY or whatever label/identity one might come up with to describe IT.

The whole point is to somehow remember my original, pure, divine Self/OBSERVER which has no problems or bad feelings instead of my personal, troubled little self/mind. :)
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Re: Relapse from being Present

Postby Matt123 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:20 am

Thanks everyone! I guess I will have to keep on the path and keep practicing. Hopefully I will be able to flow with the thoughts without actually identifying with them. That is happening now to an extent, but only for neutral ones..not the great ones or the really "bad" ones. So I am going to keep at it...thanks for the support.
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Re: Relapse from being Present

Postby tod » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:36 am

Matt123 wrote:I guess I will have to keep on the path and keep practicing.


You are the one (awareness-without form) that watches yourself (awareness-in-form) practicing. Awareness-without-form needs no practice. (This does not mean that you (awareness-in-form) do not need practice staying as awareness-without-form. Stick with this practice, ie the practice of staying unidentified (awareness-without-form))

Guessing (thinking) that you are in a situation, is the very act of awareness-without-form appearing as awareness-in-form.

Hopefully I will be able to flow with the thoughts without actually identifying with them.


Sorry, but there is nothing hopeful about this. You, as awareness-without-form, does not hope. It is only when you think about yourself that you (awareness-without-form) appear (identify yourself) as awareness-in-form, ie a being in time, that can hope about a future.

That is happening now to an extent, but only for neutral ones..not the great ones or the really "bad" ones.


You mean that you as awareness-without-form recognise yourself to at least some extent, but when the thoughts become too overwhelming you (awareness-without-form) go into thought and thus become awareness-in-form? This is understandable, but it is still good progress that needs to be recognised.

What actually needs to be recognised is even when you go into overwhelming thoughts, is that you (awareness-without-form) are not actually going into form, but only think (imagine) you are.

So I am going to keep at it...thanks for the support.


Good. And you recognise that awareness-without-form is not really in need of any support, but it appreciates it. Thank you for that recognition.

With best wishes,
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Re: Relapse from being Present

Postby Naviy Pokoy » Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:31 am

I would suggest you (and everybody else) this website:

http://www.getsomeheadspace.com/

It's simple, very easy and in further steps of it a deep guide in meditation and integrating the meditation into your whole daily life. I use it for 3 months every day for now, and it's such a pleasure.
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