Can spirituality heal your psychological disorder ?

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Re: Can spirituality heal your psychological disorder ?

Postby Phil2 » Sun May 04, 2014 8:17 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:
Phil said: I think we touch here a very fundamental question for the whole humanity. We have been living in a patriarchal model of society for thousands of years probably, where men have instituted, most often (well not to say always) violently, their domination on women.

You may have, I haven't :lol: Sure I've met it, seen it, lived with it, but that doesn't have to be the experience of it. As in one can only be truly 'dominated' with their permission. I may have said 'no thank you' quite a few times :wink:



But gender discrimination still operating in most parts of the world ... in Afghanistan or in Pakistan girls have no choice just to say 'no' ... heard of Malala Yousafzai ? ...

Here's a video of her speech at the UN in july 2013

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rNhZu3ttIU
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Re: Can spirituality heal your psychological disorder ?

Postby Phil2 » Sun May 04, 2014 8:24 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:
Phil said: But the fact is that there can be NO peace in this world as long as half of humanity (even a little more than half) is considered to be inferior to the other half ...

It's not that neatly defined. Not just male-female but many discriminations of difference being distorted into bigotries. Races, beliefs, economic considerations, educational priorities, political allegiances, resources etc

The 'danger' of seeing it quite so black and white is that it creates the uprising and support for reverse discrimination, equally destructive and just the other end of the pendulum.



There is no need to fall from Scylla to Charybdis ... each person must be equally considered whatever his/her gender, race, social origin etc ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
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Re: Can spirituality heal your psychological disorder ?

Postby Phil2 » Sun May 04, 2014 8:30 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:Many of the men that I know that went to war/s felt that they had no choice. To not go would make them a deserter, a coward, a leper, a criminal leaving their families unprotected, without income and marginalised, and socially estranged. Many who would have taken a non traditional male professional occupation also face discrimination - the male nurse, the male child care worker, hair dresser or beauty therapist etc.


Yes, when you put others in jail, you become yourself a prisoner ... action/reaction ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
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Re: Can spirituality heal your psychological disorder ?

Postby Onceler » Sun May 04, 2014 2:22 pm

I think this is a really interesting question and would answer yes and no. It depends what you call spirituality and what you call mental disorders. Someone mentioned neurosis, and I believe many spiritual practices address this amorphous condition quite well. Neurosis is no longer a psychological term, but I like it as I think it captures the broad range of garden variety mental suffering and misery......anxiety in all shapes and forms, depressive states, thought distortions (not of the psychotic ilk), and negative patterns of thinking and emotions brought on by previous experience in childhood, etc.

Techniques like 'the work' (Katie), 'the looking' (Sherman), directed and 'open awareness' meditation, body work (yoga, Qi Gong, tai chi, and all forms of inquiry can put to rest the garden variety neurotic suffering many experience. This was certainly the case for me. As to more serious psychological disorders (and my own anxiety and depressive states veered into this terrain) major depression, OCD, bi-polar, psychotic disorders, and personality disorders.....yes, I think spiritual practice can help quite a bit along with medication. It has been shown that certain mental disorders such as major depression and bipolar disorder actually physically damage gray matter, usually through the mechanism of extremely high levels of cortisol. Medications serve as protection against this damage, especially by producing a substance known as BDNF which promotes new growth in the hippocampus, an area of the brain hit especially hard by mental disorders. (Exercise also increases BDNF and is very good for the hippocampus.....one of the few areas of the brain that continue to produce new cells into adulthood).

As for ADHD, Jen.....hmmmm. I work with many students with profound ADHD, which is now seen as a working memory disorder. I've seen them on and off meds and meds simply work. They are the most effective psychotropic medication at 80% and I wouldn't hesitate to put my children in them for properly diagnosed ADHD, in fact my daughter takes a low dose and it has changed her life, I would hesitate to take antidepressants, etc as their effectiveness is little better than placebo 30-40% unless the disorder was more profound....major depression, major anxiety disorder like OCD, etc. . It sounds like the little boy you describe, like many kids, are misdiagnosed with ADHD, and may have something else going on (like high IQ or lack of stimulating education!)
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Re: Can spirituality heal your psychological disorder ?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Mon May 05, 2014 4:51 am

But gender discrimination still operating in most parts of the world ... in Afghanistan or in Pakistan girls have no choice just to say 'no' ... heard of Malala Yousafzai ? ...

My point is that gender discrimination like all discriminations is a two way street.

And yes I've read I am Malala - an interesting read. If you haven't read it, the section where she shares her cultural shock on arrival in the UK is very poignant, her sadness that she cannot in safety return to her homeland also.

Discerning what is really from the voice of Malala, known in experience and shared as a 16 year old, and what is the historical overlays of the journalist who ghost wrote the book with her, and again what is the influence and regurgitation of her father's views that permeate the book and her thinking (not saying anything is wrong with this- whose views aren't affected by our significant relationships) brings balance to the understanding of the issues within it, rather than condemnation of the perspectives and histories.

My quirky I may have had to say quite a few 'no thank you's' is in reference to natural anger arising - merely an expression of 'no thank you' to an experience, before, during or after the fact of it.

Gender and other discriminations ARE happening you are right. Those with power do exert their will over others you are right.

Ask a child in your home town how they feel about compulsory schooling and conforming with the powers they have to face in their cultural / educational environment. The situations will be different, and it might be discrimination under another name. Is there violence and disrespect in our societies - absolutely!! Is there cruelty and prejudice, every moment of every day.

Rise above the 'sides' of it and see the causes of it.
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Re: Can spirituality heal your psychological disorder ?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Mon May 05, 2014 5:06 am

Onceler said:
As for ADHD, Jen.....hmmmm. I work with many students with profound ADHD, which is now seen as a working memory disorder. I've seen them on and off meds and meds simply work. They are the most effective psychotropic medication at 80% and I wouldn't hesitate to put my children in them for properly diagnosed ADHD, in fact my daughter takes a low dose and it has changed her life, I would hesitate to take antidepressants, etc as their effectiveness is little better than placebo 30-40% unless the disorder was more profound....major depression, major anxiety disorder like OCD, etc. . It sounds like the little boy you describe, like many kids, are misdiagnosed with ADHD, and may have something else going on (like high IQ or lack of stimulating education!)

You're right Onceler, the boy mentioned does have a high intelligence, although no written testing would have 'recognised' that, as he also had dyslexia creating difficulty with interpreting the written word - ask him any questions verbally and let him demonstrate the answer in his own way (within his 'actual' rather than 'expected' capacity) and I've been constantly amazed at how brilliant his ideas are.

I think the same is true for all individuals. I don't discount what is possible by defining intelligence in any particular way and definitely not by holding on to what is not possible as a realistic indication of any expression of it.

He also has an immense physical energy level, which was part of the 'problem' in class, and now that he has found complementary outlets - sports, physical work, thinking on the job and problem solving practically etc he's not out of kilter with society's expectations and flourishes.

The thing for me is - why were the expectations given so much more weight than the reality?
Even those with low IQs and brain injuries and other affective realities have capacities that could be equally valued, and are not. Often due to lack of awareness or patience in others.

I'm interested in this 'working memory disorder' notion - can you explain that for me?
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Re: Can spirituality heal your psychological disorder ?

Postby Onceler » Mon May 05, 2014 12:35 pm

Russell Barkley, an American psychologist and preeminent researcher in ADHD, believes ADHD is an executive functioning disorder primarily of the working memory. There is both visual and verbal working memory......it's the thing that keeps you on track and goal oriented, it maintains bits of info in your mind to temporarily work with as you read, write, or think. Folks with ADHD have deficits in working memory which greatly impacts their ability to maintain focus and coherence of thought. It's that thing that erodes starting in our 40s where we walk into the It kitchen and don't remember why we're there.....we don't hold a visual or verbal memory temporarily in our minds of what we want to get, say a fork. That moment of standing in the kitchen wondering why you are there is how someone with ADHD more or less lives their entire life. It especially impacts planning and the 'point of performance'.......that point where you bring everything together, like, turning in completed homework on time, studying for a test effectively and recalling info during the test taking period, remembering your mum's birthday and having a card and flowers by her bed as she wakes up.......people with ADHD live in the eternal now, but not in a functional way, but in a manner that doesn't take into account the next future moment or span of time in a meaningful, planned way.

He finds ADHD to be the most debilitating outpatient psychiatric disorder. This is taken from actuarial data taking into account: car accidents, other accidents, job loss, health and dental issues, divorce, substance abuse, incarceration, etc.

Here is Barkley talking about ADHD at a conference.....a pretty good summary: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wF1YRE8ff1g
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Re: Can spirituality heal your psychological disorder ?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Tue May 06, 2014 2:40 am

Thanks for this Onceler, that presentation was interesting.

Given what he said, about it being an intention deficit makes sense. Within the myriad of neurological interactions and responses to stimuli the vast 'possibilities' are moment by moment in all of us different.

---- I still cannot go past the notion that we have some 'ideal' of awareness, capacity and willingness, some 'normal' that outside of that is an abnormality to be treated, rather than appreciated (in the sense of recognised and accepted) and worked with in individual interactions - as he said, we have to change the place.

I get that it creates 'problems' in situ - what doesn't? Intention with intense application of knowledge to action also does, we just maybe don't recognise it as much as a disabling feature because we value ambition and 'results'.

What I find debilitating is this notion that there is some 'normal' across the broad spectrum of knowledge and application, one that fits into our paradigm and that everyone 'should' fit into, and if they don't we are going to damn well do everything we can to them to make them fit, or exclude them.

It's upside down to me, and I hope he means what I think he means by changing the place - changing our expectations in line with the reality, rather than trying to make a round hole fit a square peg.

A community is made up of individuals, the whole community is not worth more than any one of those individuals, and each of the individuals contributes according to their awareness, capacity and willingness.

We take the human experience in a vast eco system and delineate what is a flower and what is a weed, in our eco-system, only with our intellect, not by natural consequences unfolding and being accommodated within the environment. We're the only species that do this.

Truly, show me any 'average' 'normal' human being within the many and varied scales of neurological, biological and psychological 'performance' assessments that we might rate people by.

Or, appreciate each as they are.

We all have our unique 'disabilities' to satisfy the cultural norms in some aspect or another. Trying to make individuals fit the social 'norm' is (for me) unnecessary and abusive. There are elements in our society where these people with the limited intention deficit bring others to the present moment - where is the valuing of that?

There is no suffering until there is awareness of the lack of our societal acceptance of the uniqueness of all of us.

Does he really advocate changing society, educational institutions and practices that separate us into these little boxed labels? - I'd be for that. Again the wisdom of the elders that had been over-ruled by 'science' and 'civilised knowledge' would come back into play.

In ancient civilisations of harmony there was a ''Weaver of Dreams'' - the wise one who would watch and interact with the children and help them dream their future contributions to the community - not by changing their natural abilities, or demonising their inabilities, but by recognising, encouraging and appreciating that we all have something unique to contribute, and our uniqueness is what brings it all together.

A thriving eco-system is not just full of roses.

edit: it's the difference between thinking the end game of a society is an economy of material growth and achievements; as compared to a cooperative collection of varied species and humans in harmony.
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Re: Can spirituality heal your psychological disorder ?

Postby Onceler » Tue May 06, 2014 3:38 am

I hear you, Jen, but remember the definition of a psychiatric disorder is that it causes distress and dysfunction in all spheres of life. This is not mild hyperactivity and typical teenage impulsivity, this is a pervasive dysfunction of the frontal lobes affecting about 7% of the population. I don't think you can criticize society, and believe me it needs criticizing and revamping, through the lens of one disorder. An ADHD individual would be dysfunctional in any setting, unless it is highly structured. What I am faced with as an educator, and I have the luxury of working in a private school with highly trained colleages, is that I have to prepare kids to go into the world as it is.....a world that places high value on thinking with words and thinking non-verbally, reading, and being highly organized in whatever endeavor they are doing....and being able to get along with a wide variety of people as you do it.

What you're suggesting is a philosophical revamping of society which hasn't worked so far. I can tell you the story of my daughter and her path with ADHD. My daughter is highly creative and a free spirit. When she was in fourth grade we moved to a place in the US which was very homogenous and valued conformity. She suffered socially and academically. She would come home in tears every night, in pieces because she could not focus on the teacher and she misread her peers. In spite of my profession I never suspected ADHD and it wasn't until she was in 9th grade and struggling....and, as I look back just about ready to give up on herself as dumb and stupid and to go down a very antisocial path, my wife had her evaluated by a psychologist and she was found to be ADHD. She went on a course of low dose stimulant meds which I had extreme heartburn over. At first she was more focused, but she didn't know what to do with it. After about 6 months she began to believe in her self as a student, discovered how to organize herself and was able to engage her working memory and create continuity in her natural intelligence. She learned to manage intention. She is now, 2 years later, very happy and motivated, believes she is smart, taking honors classes and juggling a full schedule. I think she works too hard and the expectations of society are too high.....but she is truly proud of her accomplishments and uses her brain to way more potential than before. Most importantly, she is not melting down over homework every night and she believes she can do things. Her self esteem is high. She has taught me more about ADHD than my own undiagnosed experience and more about perseverance and the human spirit.

Jails are full of dyslexic and ADHD individuals. There are too many over diagnosed ADHD folks and far to many more undiagnosed. ADHD tends to resolve itself in about 50% of cases by adulthood. There is a late frontal lobe surge about 18-20 and a finishing of the brains neuroplastisity around the age of 25. I hear you about changing society and education. Absolutely, and in the process we need to stick with treatments that work without preconceived bias.

Believe me, I've fantasized about starting my own school. It would be a boarding school, because in many dysfunctional kids the parents are a huge part of the problem. They would do a lot of hands on physical labor, growing food, taking care of animals, cooking, etc. they would be active and exercise and eat unprocessed foods. They would have limited access to digital culture, video games, etc. The school day would be interspersed with exercise and meaningful work. They would all learn a trade as a fall back or primary way to make a living if college wasn't their thing.

I can dream, I guess.......
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Re: Can spirituality heal your psychological disorder ?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Tue May 06, 2014 5:38 am

I hear you Onceler, and thank you for your generosity.
(Edit: omg I've written a thesis!!)

I'm happy for your daughter that with help she has managed to flourish, and I completely appreciate this -
She has taught me more about ADHD than my own undiagnosed experience and more about perseverance and the human spirit.

^Yum!!
She is now, 2 years later, very happy and motivated, believes she is smart, taking honors classes and juggling a full schedule. I think she works too hard and the expectations of society are too high.....but she is truly proud of her accomplishments and uses her brain to way more potential than before. Most importantly, she is not melting down over homework every night and she believes she can do things. Her self esteem is high.

Do you think she always was 'smart' she just hadn't been given the room to be her own brand of 'smart' and be able to believe it, maybe more from lack of appreciation in the wider society than anything else? (in absolutely understandable conforming with what society 'expects' and 'demands'.)

ADHD tends to resolve itself in about 50% of cases by adulthood. There is a late frontal lobe surge about 18-20 and a finishing of the brains neuroplastisity around the age of 25.

And this is not taken into account in our educational systems because......................??????

Jails are full of dyslexic and ADHD individuals. There are too many over diagnosed ADHD folks and far to many more undiagnosed.


Sometimes I wonder when the diagnosis just shifts a societal problem rather than face it and change it.
....

Many high achievers and creatives have these melt downs - even the most high achieving in terms of results, so I can see where diagnosing becomes difficult.

My daughter used to also have melt downs, and wait until the very last minute to complete assignments - more concerned about what the 'result' would make people think of her and the consequences of how they would treat her, than any attention or intention (acceptance, enjoyment, enthusiasm) on the actual job at hand. She would become paralysed with fear. IN some ways I don't see a difference in the suffering.

The thing was, she was 'diagnosed' as gifted and that set a whole range of expectations on her academically and behaviourally - and her cousin, the boy I spoke of earlier, diagnosed with ADD, as well as dyslexia has or had, petit mal epilepsy so you could give him a direction and he could miss an important word in a sentence, and it look like he hadn't paid attention, it wasn't that at all eg: one might say can you go to the fridge and get the tomato sauce, he'd go to the fridge and say - what am I getting? because his brain had a fart during the 'tomato sauce' bit. This was read as 'insolent' or not paying attention or even for some as being anti-social - the kid was just doing the best with what he had, with no ill-intention whatsoever. You could not find a more sweet and practically intelligent and kind and generous and loving person than him. He did not deserve some of the treatment he was subjected to.

Together the two of them were just kids being their beautiful creative selves, neither smarter than the other, quite able to appreciate each other's ways of being, in absolute love and harmony.

In time driven performance assessment activities he would avoid (called 'disruptive') and she would stress and be in tears too. For him it was with acceptance that some demeaning comments or punishment would follow anyway; for her she was convinced that she wasn't really 'gifted' at all, and the 'gifted'ness that others labelled her with, had somehow evaporated and that she was really just a fraud and this would be the assignment that would scream it to the world.

We don't know that our 'normal' is only our 'normal' until someone points it out to us that it's not everybody's 'normal', no matter the difference or perceived distance from 'normal'. A blind person does not know that everyone cannot see as they do, until someone tells them.

We are not our intellect and/or our achievements no matter how much society tries to pigeon hole us into that. That is the distress, that is the cause of suffering. There really is no 'normal' is my point. And regardless of the direction that one is in distance to this perceived 'normal' one will feel isolation and suffer, either in trying to conform, or in the inability to do so.

An achievement (according to the teachers and officials at school) for my nephew was if he managed to go a whole week without being sent to the office for punishment and isolation. What does that teach our children? He blossomed once he left school and is in a very responsible position in his work, and a brilliant father and husband.

On the other end of it some of my daughter's teachers were afraid of her at times when she would innocently ask very highly intelligent questions or provide 'different' perspectives on a thing, (one doesn't know the intelligence or stupidity of their own questions or thoughts - that's only 'comparative'). If they were unable to answer her or were uncomfortable with admitting the limitations of their knowledge (I'm the teacher and I have an attachment to the role, rather than the responsibilities of it) they would use their positions of authority to bully her, or belittle her into conformity. Which is why many with highly intelligent minds hide it, and many with creative minds stifle them, and underachieve within their own potential in order to fit into the 'norm' (that I don't believe really exists).

During one of her meltdowns my younger daughter (for whom being socially aware trumped being intellectually aware, albeit she got into just as much 'trouble' for her differences too - it wasn't beyond her as a five year old to hold adults to task for social injustices) said "I don't know why you're stressing so much, you only have to pass." She saw that you could keep the peace by doing as little as was required to satisfy staying in the 'normal range'. So she underachieved too!!! She was building a little business when she was four and organising social activities and helping the less fortunate as soon as she went to Kindy.

Why do we limit our children expressing who they really are?

Anyway, the other one near blew a fuse and said 'This is me we're talking about.' And then I saw it, the pressure she was under to conform to this 'ideal', this 'label' that had been attached to her. When she finally got a teacher who just loved her for who she was she would write a 'thesis' in an assignment that the teacher was happy to assess apart -joking that she would set aside one night to read all the other assignments, and one just for one. The greatest gift this teacher gave all the children was to love (gratitude & generosity) them for who they were as individuals, not as they ranked in a class. Such a gift!!

This temporarily eased the pressure of living up to the notions of her 'place' in the educational setting that both before and after had her forever on edge.

That's a terrible thing to do to any child, at either end of the spectrum of being able to regurgitate information and give examples of applying it. - which is all formal education is. (at home we only lived with the all encompassing realities, our farts all stink and we are all beautiful even with that :wink: )

I understand how devastating it is to see your child go through that, and to look for a 'cure' any cure sometimes, when pain is so great we seek to alleviate it. Things like The Freedom Writers and other docos/movies that show courage to step outside that formal educational paradigm and work with, and build the confidence of children's abilities rather than label them for their inabilities, more than point out the failing is in the system, not in the children.

I considered home schooling, but she really needed the width and breadth of social interaction with her peers. We did make a few changes to the system but sometimes these were contaminated by achievement-ended educational egos using the children to boost their own self esteem.

I was so frustrated with the educational setting and especially when some days she would crawl under her bed crying not wanting to face particularly one bullying teacher, that I sought out alternatives - the Steiner School seemed like a really respectful of the individual philosophy and when I spoke to the coordinator at a new local facility and explained the situation - this child had a full adult vocabulary and could use it very well (and beat me in a logical, rational argument) at the age of two years old, had taught herself to read, and by age four was reading the full version of the Wind in the Willows competently, so competently she could joke about it with her granda who was (even with his immense intelligence) concerned for the seeming disparity in physical & emotional age and her intellectual age.

Her level of understanding 'nuance' and playfulness pre formal education was delightful! When she showed my Dad the book she was reading and telling him the story he said, be sure if there's a word you don't understand that you get someone to help you with it, you don't have to do this all on your own. She lit up like a shooting star and said 'Granda!!! There is!!! There is a word.... you can help me with it!' and she flicked through to show him a word of nonsense made up from .. I'll pretend - it was something like eggandhamandbaconfryinginthepansmellinthemorning...that went on for a line and a half - and as he was confusingly reading it she peeled with laughter and said 'It's a pretend word Granda!!!' - she knew all along!

She would ask me a question and I'd have to assess her interest level - if I was busy, whether I could fob her off with a casual remark in my possibly limited knowledge on the subject, or if it would become a deep discussion, or if we were off to the library to research it to her satisfaction. When I first asked a child counsellor about her attention capacity they said she was just attention seeking. There's a difference if someone has totally framed a perspective and is seeking more understanding, than if a two year old is just saying 'Why?' to everything without any commitment them self. When I finally spoke to a friend who was a child psychologist she said "I wondered when you'd call me.' She'd seen it from the earliest of days, and indeed as she was acutely premature and monitored for growth and development milestones for the first four years she always exceeded 'normal' in all cognitive and functional testing. I had laughed when the doctor advised that she'd need specialised education when she managed to unscrew his stethoscope while he was examining her as a tiny, baby only then reaching 'term' but already three months old in reality.

But as she was the only two year old I had, she was a 'normal' two year old for me.

The 'sad' thing, she lost much of that joy (as did her cousin) in the formal education system. How can we do that to our children on any level. I cannot tell you how many times it broke my heart. And not just with her, with any child who could not stay within imagined 'normal' lines... conform and keep faith in them self being okay or being treated as if they are okay - we are all okay!

Anyway, the Steiner School rejected her - go figure - they said that her performance and their ideology was 'diametrically opposed' because they didn't believe children should learn to read until they are at least seven. What about the child? What about the child's individual development, whose interests you proclaim to support and protect and provide for?

Well, yes, normally we would.

:roll:

I'm afraid I was one of 'those' mums :wink: that the teachers would dread seeing marching in their direction. :lol:
Although, I was respectful if she said 'let me handle it, I want them to choose to be kind on their own, not because you tell them they have to.' It was heartbreaking watching a little girl have this generosity towards an adult in a position of authority behaving badly.

I guess I also come from an era where many diagnoses and medicating regimes have proven to be more disastrous than helpful in the long term. It was not unusual for women to be 'sedated' with 'mother's little helpers' mostly just to keep them from expressing their feelings or oppositions to things because those oppositions would upset the 'nuclear family' roles and norms; or to have their hormonal system 'regulated' chemically for 'convenience' or short term 'control' in line with social conformity or avoidance of realities - which is how I also see the use of anti-depressants in many 'cases', but I respect different awareness, capacity and willingnesses - albeit within my awareness, capacity and willingness.

Outside of that I react as I do, and I'm okay with that.


Ooh... my daughter recently made an interesting observation and comment about her 2 year old daughter the other day - it brought so much of this 'pain' back - they had been playing catch with one of those grip it pads, and a few days later the child found a leather glove and said "Mum - play catch!' and with an imaginary ball threw it and caught it and followed it with her head and eyes - sometimes running for it with great effort and enthusiasm. She'd yell 'Got it!!' when she imaginarily caught the imaginary ball, and say "Good catch Mum!! when her Mum imaginarily caught it.

The thing that caught at our throats - one of the times when it was her turn to catch, she imaginarily 'dropped' it and said 'Oops!! dropped it' and raced to where it 'was' to retrieve it before throwing it back.

The 'thing' - my daughter said to me - Mum, she even imagines 'failing' is okay....... even in her imaginary play she doesn't have to be perfect, she allows for mistakes and failings...'

'Failing' was something my daughter had to learn was okay, amid buckets of tears and much of my encouragement that it would be good for her, because she would learn that the sun still comes up in the morning, that I still love her, and that she is still the wonderful person she is.

She 'knew' this from me, but she didn't believe it in the wider world.

The unsaid: - When will the wider world 'teach' this to this precious next generation child?
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Re: Can spirituality heal your psychological disorder ?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Tue May 06, 2014 5:55 am

Believe me, I've fantasized about starting my own school. It would be a boarding school, because in many dysfunctional kids the parents are a huge part of the problem. They would do a lot of hands on physical labor, growing food, taking care of animals, cooking, etc. they would be active and exercise and eat unprocessed foods. They would have limited access to digital culture, video games, etc. The school day would be interspersed with exercise and meaningful work. They would all learn a trade as a fall back or primary way to make a living if college wasn't their thing.

I can dream, I guess.......


Build it.... they will come!!!

Can we enrol my grand daughter now please, but can she be a day student, her parents are pretty okay :D


Another beautiful boy (now gorgeous man still getting into 'trouble') also fell foul of the 'system' both at home and at school. The reputation that preceded him melted in his company in a very short space of time. His life had been so devoid of love he didn't know who he was or what his capacities really were. He'd been physically and sexually abused from the age of two and bounced from one foster home to another as folks couldn't cope with his explosions in frustration.

Naturally brought home like a stray and fostered by my youngest into being a part of our family, coming from an abusive family himself and being in foster care at the time, he just blossomed. He had never felt so safe to just be his beautiful self. He knew he'd been hiding it, he just never felt safe to show it. He'd been told how 'stupid' and 'worthless' he was all his life and also wrongly diagnosed with all manner of things and shoved from pillar to post.

While we were playing 'Cross chess' a four player chess game where you not only have to look in front of you and strategise, but to both sides as well, we encouraged him to join in, he knew how to play chess but didn't often get the chance to play, he was aware my son-in-law had been in a chess club for years, and said he wasn't that good. I confessed that I'm not that good at it either - I lack the 'killer' instinct and dance around at the 'check' stage far too long for it to go to 'check-mate' and he laughed and joined in.

He beat us all the first time he played it, including my son-in-law who was a junior chess champion and was vocally encouraging in awe of the natural seeming ability displayed in this young one's moves.

He was shocked at himself when he beat my son-in-law for the finish, he was shaking and said he never thought he could do something like that, he wasn't smart enough to beat someone like that. Bless him my S-I-L said 'BS, you beat me fair and square, I wasn't pulling any punches - I like to win!! And they roared laughing.

Right there and then we proclaimed (and he beamed and laughed) he never had to believe or put up with any such BS ever again, and also neither could he ever use it as an excuse not to shine.

It was almost like he shed a whole skin, and a very heavy chip on his shoulder. Then my youngest went into bat for him to go to an agricultural college (he'd been expelled from every school) and for the 'authorities' who were supposed to be his guardian and providing for him, to pay for it. She even made them buy him a cowboy hat!!!

On the day he got accepted he was on our doorstep with tears of love/fear/excitement/gratitude in his eyes saying "I got in...." We hugged him and cheered and he shook his head saying 'You don't understand, it means I'll have to leave you to go..... ' I told him no matter where he was he would never have left us, because our love our joy, our support would always be with him. He worried he would 'let us down' and we said its not our journey, you can never let us down, you can only do your best, for you.

He passed all of his exams and was honestly working on his 'anger management' issues. (gees cos if life treats you with such contempt one shouldn't be angry, and if no one has shown you by example how to express your anger you're supposed to just figure out how on your own) My youngest rang him every night to check how he was doing, spoke to his room-mates and the college 'parents'.... and when she was killed they arranged and paid for him to fly back to be with us.

It takes so little. A little love, a little faith, a little laughter, a little stepping outside of our comfort zone. It, the game, life, wasn't/isn't really about winning - it was/is about testing ourselves. The banter and laughter far outweighing the competitive natures (and they were there too) if we never test ourselves in a loving and safe environment how will we ever know what we are capable of?

(okay, getting off the soapbox now :wink: )
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
http://www.balancinginfluences.com
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Re: Can spirituality heal your psychological disorder ?

Postby Phil2 » Tue May 06, 2014 6:59 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:
Gender and other discriminations ARE happening you are right. Those with power do exert their will over others you are right.

Ask a child in your home town how they feel about compulsory schooling and conforming with the powers they have to face in their cultural / educational environment. The situations will be different, and it might be discrimination under another name. Is there violence and disrespect in our societies - absolutely!! Is there cruelty and prejudice, every moment of every day.


Yes Jen, you are right to raise this question. Most people consider 'compulsory schooling' as quite normal for a so-called civilized society, very few of them see the violence of this 'schooling' ... how children are forced to learn things they don't like, obey to people they don't know, and stay with so-called 'friends' in class-rooms far from their 'home' ...

For me our educational system is a big problem and also a big failure, this is where we learn competition, this is where we learn social conformism, this is where we learn to obey to authority, this is where we have to learn to fight to 'survive' ... and many will say "well, that life, life is a struggle, children have to learn to live in this society"; they don't see how violent it is ... then they are surprised to see that at times one of those teens takes a gun and takes his 'revenge' ... but it does not surprise me ...
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)
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Re: Can spirituality heal your psychological disorder ?

Postby smiileyjen101 » Tue May 06, 2014 7:03 am

then they are surprised to see that at times one of those teens takes a gun and takes his 'revenge' ... but it does not surprise me ..

More often than not they turn the weapon on them self. And we sweep it under the carpet because it illustrates something very different to the 'map'.

(If the map disagrees with the ground, the map is wrong.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
http://www.balancinginfluences.com
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Re: Can spirituality heal your psychological disorder ?

Postby Phil2 » Tue May 06, 2014 7:32 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:The 'sad' thing, she lost much of that joy (as did her cousin) in the formal education system. How can we do that to our children on any level. I cannot tell you how many times it broke my heart. And not just with her, with any child who could not stay within imagined 'normal' lines... conform and keep faith in them self being okay or being treated as if they are okay - we are all okay!


Beautiful post Jen ... so many things you say in this (long :-)) post ...

Reminds me Saint-Exupéry (the author of "The Little Prince") who speaks of society as a "stamping machine" which cannot do anything else than "murder the Mozart" who lives in each child ... Mozart is condemned ...

" I sat down face to face with one couple. Between the man and the woman a child had hollowed himself out a place and fallen asleep. He turned in his slumber, and in the dim lamplight I saw his face. What an adorable face! A golden fruit had been born of these two peasants. Forth from this sluggish scum had sprung this miracle of delight and grace.

I bent over the smooth brow, over those mildly pouting lips, and I said to myself: This is a musician's face. This is the child Mozart. This is a life full of beautiful promise. Little princes in legends are not different from this. Protected, sheltered, cultivated, what could not this child become?

When by mutation a new rose is born in a garden, all the gardeners rejoice. They isolate the rose, tend it, foster it. But there is no gardener for men. This little Mozart will be shaped like the rest by the common stamping machine. This little Mozart will love shoddy music in the stench of night dives. This little Mozart is condemned.

I went back to my sleeping car. I said to myself: Their fate causes these people no suffering. It is not an impulse to charity that has upset me like this. I am no weeping over an eternally open wound. Those who carry the wound do not feel it. It is the human race and not the individual that is wounded here, is outraged here. I do not believe in pity. What torments me tonight is the gardener's point of view. What torments me is not this poverty to which after all a man can accustom himself as easily as to sloth. Generations of Orientals live in filth and love it. What torments me is not the humps nor hollows nor the ugliness. It is the sight, a little bit in all these men, of Mozart murdered.

Only the Spirit, if it breathe upon the clay, can create Man.


Antoine de Saint-Exupéry - Night Flight
"What irritates us about others is an opportunity to learn on ourselves"
(Carl Jung)
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Re: Can spirituality heal your psychological disorder ?

Postby Onceler » Tue May 06, 2014 11:45 am

Yes, beautiful Jen. You caught the complexity of life and childhood. Children are so brilliant and amazing. I work with many of the most battered by the system and their resilience is astounding. Great story about the chess player. I have seen that all it takes is for someone to believe in kids and then they believe in themselves......it's true for all of us.
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