A discussion community revolving around Eckhart Tolle but not limited to him
I also have the following questions for other Eckhart Tolle followers about this scenario...
1. What, from the Eckhart Tolle, perspective is going to happen immediately after this awful experience? Nothing at all? or reincarnation? or we disappear into the 'one consciousness' of the universe forever?
2. If, as Eckhart, suggests the personality does not survive death, do any memories survive? Thus, if we are reincarnated, would we ever again have any knowledge of this unthinkable experience? or that we had a relationship?
3. If there are no past memories in future incarnations - then how does the immortality of some part (the part which Eckhart refers to as being immortal and timeless) of us benefit us, given that we would never again be aware that we existed in that physical form? In other words, if all memory is gone forever, then are we not effectively, dead forever?
Jonski wrote:BEING ‘PRESENT’ AT A TIME OF UNBEARABLE PAIN AND DISTRESS FOR YOURSELF AND YOUR LOVED ONES
Phil said: However when the situation becomes really 'unbearable', this resistance might be dropped suddenly and instantaneously ... out of our 'helplessness', our 'defense system' could totally collapse ... and then the miracle happens: all this suffering dissolves and fades away ... this is what happened to Eckhart Tolle and probably to many others too ...
a) Clearly your own physical pain and suffering will continue unabated by your acceptance and will be fully experienced to whatever unbearable level is humanly possible.
b) Your mental suffering will be somewhat reduced because you have accepted your fate, and are not making it worse by thinking about it. However, this relief would appear to pale into insignificance in light of the physical pain, and horror of witnessing your children’s suffering.
c) One could choose to cover ears and turn away from the children in an effort to minimize the horror of witnessing their suffering. And a new dilemma would arise - if you choose to turn towards your children, you could in fact increase their suffering as they witness your suffocation during their own, but if you turn away, it could seem like an act of abandonment.
It would appear that being ‘present’ in this scenario, and following the teachings of Eckhart, would do little to reduce the terror, horror, physical and mental pain of this particular situation.
I can see that Eckhart's teachings are of real value for small matters – for example, when stuck in a traffic jam. But, can these teachings be considered to be of value if they don't help when things get really tough?
To put it another way: You can alleviate the stress of minor inconveniences by accepting rather that resisting them; but if something really bad happens, is it going to make much, if any, difference?
Rightly or wrongly, I suppose I'm thinking that if our beliefs don't stand up to scrutiny in the worst possible of situations, then maybe they don't stand up at all, and that is my underlying fear.
Understand, just because the personality 'may not' survive death, that does not mean one's sense of self and being does not. A personality formed out of distorted human related belief structures is no more likely to survive than the dream personality one abandons upon awakening from a deep sleep. Again, one doesn't lose their sense of self and being just because a dream perspective of reality and self has left behind. Rather that sense of self is greatly enhanced and expanded.
Memories however are a different matter. Just as we can remember our dreams to some extent, as souls freed from the human perspective, with a far greater capacity to perceive and remember, we have perfect clarity and far greater perspective relating to all previous experience. Nothing is ever lost.3. If there are no past memories in future incarnations - then how does the immortality of some part (the part which Eckhart refers to as being immortal and timeless) of us benefit us, given that we would never again be aware that we existed in that physical form? In other words, if all memory is gone forever, then are we not effectively, dead forever?
This is a faulty assumption. Incarnation in human form has its own unique dynamics. One of which is its uniqueness in limited consciousness. Generally speaking, no memories from other incarnations are brought into human form that could cause distraction from a soul's previous adventures. Imagine you remembered being a death camp guard with vivid memories of murders and rapes you committed. No, the adventures of the present lifetime are challenge enough. You as a human perspective do not reincarnate in any case. It is you as a soul, with a far greater vision and understanding of the human experience, that extends itself into the physical environment as a newly incarnated human.
This limited human you, from your soul perspective is more experience than identity - just as is a dream self from the human perspective. Memories available from this human perspective are stored in the brain from those experiences had during this single lifetime. They also have a vibratory counterpart that last forever. In the greater reality of being, there is no time, so forever is relative to our human perspective. Once some experience is, it simply is. There is no judgment of it, regardless of how we may perceive it from our fearful human identification - no more so than one would judge him/her self for the antics within a dream.
Jonski wrote:The ideas which you express above are interesting and appealing, but may I ask what is the reason that you have confidence in these beliefs? Have you had some kind of supernatural or meditation experience which gives you this extra insight, or have you simply chosen to believe in this particular way of looking at things? What gives you the confidence that these ideas are true please?
Jonski wrote:• Are not all our reassuring ideas about caring universe in which we matter and have a purpose, simply delusions we can only entertain, because really bad things have not happened to us yet?
• I once saw an interview with a famous presenter of TV wildlife documentaries, he had seen much of the world and of nature, and he was asked if he believed in God. He said ‘No’ because he did not believe that God created parasites to torment small children in Africa.
this is kind of cute - what makes it a 'problem' is our resistance to it, and possibly our failure to recognise that it is temporary. Pain can very much be our friend. Outside of physical form awareness there is only the equilibrium of the elements that are juxtaposed against each other in aggravation so all pain has an end, blending, balancing.‘problem of pain’
Are our currently comfortably lives not simply analogous to the rat before he falls into the pool? or mice before they’ve been caught? or a fly before he’s squashed?
But isn’t real physical suffering is a completely different matter. It is not mind-made (or at least not in the same way as the first kind), you can’t easily shut off the panic, and terror, of real imminent death and destruction. (Ok maybe a handful of people in the world could). You can’t switch off the pain that goes with the body being about to die. Bodies don’t die for nothing.
randomguy wrote:Holy crap that's touching about the butterflies drawn by the children.
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